Finding Wisdom Through The Good, True, And Beautiful - Ep. 1

Welcome to Merging Wisdom Podcast. This is our introduction into what this is all about. Why are we even here? Who are we hoping to speak to? Who are we? Who are we? Yeah, well, I'm Joel Hubbard and I'm Dan Heroy, and I'm Sarina Heroy. It's awesome to have my three of us together. Yeah. Married couple. And, you know, you guys, we've known each other for a while now, so this is a fun little endeavor that we get to do on the side Kind of inspired by, you know, merging wisdom.

Name itself kind of gives away. What we're trying to do is talk about faith and spirituality through the lens of of wisdom. And, and that's kind of, you know, people have talked a lot about wisdom, but I think that this is sort of something very important these days. It feels to me like there's a lot of of impulsivity, reactivity going on and not a lot of wisdom going on in our world.

And some of the one of the frameworks I'll just sort of establish here is the Plato's triad, the good, the true and the beautiful. And to my mind, I think that's a good framework to work. You know, anything we talk about through that lens, is it beautiful? Is it inspiring us? Was it move us, does it touch us or we impacted by it?

To me that's that's the beautiful. And then is it good? Does it produce good fruit. You know we talk about that as you know, people who have read the Bible, read the scriptures, who are, you know, born in that world. We know about the fruit of the spirit. We grew up hearing about it. And so, you know, is there the fruit of the spirit?

Is it is it producing good fruit? And that's measured in relationship to others, not just in well, I spoke the truth and love. Too bad if they didn't like it. I was like, okay, but there's also this thing of relationship, you know, and how it was, how it impacted others. And then is it true? And I think that that is sort of like, do do we think about things not just factually true, but is it true at a level of, oh, it opened my eyes.

I thought I understood something, I thought I said, oh, I see this part of me, I didn't like it or I don't like, and I didn't know it was there, you know. And and those are the awarenesses it's also really positive, like, oh, I had a profound insight in something that really moved me. And I do think that to kind of work together because, you know, if if it moves you at it like it opens your eyes, you see something, it might also be very inspiring and touch you at the heart level.

And so it might be the beautiful as well. And then it also kind of leads us to being a, you know, more fruitful in our relationships. So it leads us to being to the good as well. So anyways, those are some my my thoughts around this. I'd love to hear your kind of where you want to take it.

Yeah. Well that's I was going to say I'm interested to see where we do take this podcast series when we're talking together, or we're going to have really interesting guests on. We've already I'll give it away. We've done a few interviews already, and they're fantastic, insightful guests that we're going to be talking to. So they're going to introduce whatever their world is, you know, their view of of wisdom and what they've learned from their studies and their pursuits and their corner of things.

So we're just going to have a very robust, dynamic and quite different conversations with different people. And but with the through line, like you're saying, of what's the what's the beauty in it? What's the good, what's the true. And sometimes maybe like what's not helpful, what's not beautiful about this thing that's happening in culture or religion or, you know, our own streams of, of Christianity or whatever we find ourselves in, but trying to, I think, spin it back to that more positive thing of the good, the true, the beautiful, not just picking things apart, just saying what we don't like saying where there's problems because there's lots of podcasts, there's lots of commentary,

there's lots of social media out there right now that that talk about all the problems in the world. And there certainly are those things. And we're not going to necessarily ignore those or shy away from from that, but always trying to spin it like a good seven Enneagram seven wood, which I am and Joel is Sarina's Enneagram three if you are tracking with that from more of the art of growth side of things.

But yeah, just trying to explore culture, religion, spirituality, politics, even even though this is not a political podcast, but how does that impact us? What is all that doing to us and through us and for us and for our families and our friends, and talk to some really cool people about how it's impacting them and what they've learned about all those things, too.

I'm excited, and we're not looking for agreement. We're not. I think it's important to say that our podcast is not going to be. We're interviewing only people we agree with or people who think like us in the three point. The reason why the three of us are together is because we do love each other. I think I you know, you were saying that John Crowder is your best friend.

But, you know, I hope he didn't reciprocate. Just spoiler alert. Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to say that to it's a guess anymore. It's too vulnerable to say you'll have to watch that episode. But but it's we don't we're not looking for agreement. What we're looking for is discussion through trying looking again through the lens of wisdom.

What are we. What's the deeper wisdom? What are we learning? What are we seeing? How are we going through this. So we're going to address a lot of topics, a lot of the ones that are hot button issues in the world. We're going to talk about those. But I think we're going to do this to my aspiration is we do this in a redemptive way. We we find the beauty.

We find the way forward in the midst of all of that. Yeah, yeah. I just want to say and I want to hear from Sarina, too, like with John Crowder, who is a friend of mine. And he's kind of a polarizing Christian, you know, theologian, speaker in that world. So some people might see somebody that came on and go, well, I don't agree with him.

Or we can have somebody that views things opposite from him or just very differently from him. And I'm fine with with both of those things are talking to somebody does not in any way and or agreement and endorsement, even though I do love John and we're going to have some other people on that. We absolutely do kind of, you know, love or whatever.

But I'm so into talking to various people of various backgrounds, of various beliefs, of various persuasions, and seeing what kind of common ground we have, or not just a different point of view. I think that's a fantastic thing. People do have a hard time with that, so that might be something that we're going to have to navigate with whoever's following us and see how that goes for for other people.

But I know that can be difficult sometimes when you see somebody that you don't agree with and you go, well, why would you talk to them or why would you platform, platform them, right. Like I'm here for whoever you know is valuable, has insights whether I agree or not. I want to hear their take and we'll have our take and you have your take.

We're practicing the very thing we're saying we want. It's like, can we do conversation around on topics that are controversial and issues that are provocative, and do it in a way that we're not seeking to defeat someone else. We're not seeking to make another view look stupid. There's enough of that in the world. We want to cultivate wisdom.

We want to see, well, yeah, that that did impact me in a weird way. Why did that affect me the way it did? Why was I reacting to this? So I think this is a place for us to be authentic in our own conversations, to even talk about like, oh, that one, that one kind of. Yeah, that I felt that wanted it.

It's like I'm having a bit of a reaction to that. So I think we need to practice this together and to do that with our guests as well. So I hope that's that's a way forward, is we're not seeking to have an echo chamber to create one. We want to invite discussion, disagreement, different views. But we're not looking to stay there.

We're looking to see can we get to that deeper understanding, to that deeper wisdom. And we want to find people that are interested in that as well. So yeah, the wisdom component of emerging wisdom is in all the wisdom that we have and we have, we're going to share with everybody. Of course, if we have wisdom, will gladly share it.

But we're on this journey of exploring and discussing wisdom with each other and with other people. It's not were the wise gurus that have everything that you guys need to. Well, except for Sarina's got Sarina's wise, so that's the exception. So she's the exception. Yeah. So. But seriously, talk to us soon. And there's a lot of. We've said yes to five, seven, two times seven taking off.

So we're going to pump the brakes. Shut up and listen to you. So talk to us. Your guide finding a way to jump in. And you guys bring up so many points. But I mean in one sense I will say I'm quite the opposite of the guru. I'm someone that craves wisdom and and and less focused on being someone who offers wisdom.

Like I'm here in the conversation because I crave it, because there's been something inside of me since I can remember that has desired and been attracted to making like life meaningful and doing it well. Right. And I feel like. And so wisdom defining wisdom for me is it comes down to this practical element, to this accessible, lived in element.

I want it to be able to practice it. I want to be able to to apply it in my life and actually see it and feel it and be it instead of just it all in here. Because I'm if we're doing the game where it's all head stuff like I'm out, I'm out, like I'm like, I already lose, I'm done.

So, so but there's yet this craving inside of my soul that that is attracted to it and interested. Right. And so it's like I want to listen to those conversations, but they only get me so far. Right? Like the knowledge, the the intellect only gets me so far. And I'm constantly in, in conversations of trying to whether it's a lecture, whether it's a course, whether it's just listening to an expert in something.

There's so much knowledge that comes from that, that I love, like trying to get all of the juice out of that lemon. But at the end of the day, I hope I can make lemonade out of it. You know, like I want to be able to drink it. I don't just want to collect all the lemons and hang them on a shelf and make it look like all pretty, like, like, let my kitchen get dirty.

Let's, let's let's make some lemonade, man. You know? So, like, that's that's what I am excited about this podcast and what might evolve from these conversations and from these incredible voices that already we have lined up and have interviews coming of, of these really thoughtful people and just and in their own world, experts and but yet I can have access to it still it's I don't have to be this scholar.

I don't have to be this, like, guru myself to feel like I can gain anything from it. And so I hope our conversations, our fingerprints in the conversations, help make it more accessible so that people can take what's being examined in the different episodes and do something with it beyond just consume and then it be forgotten. You know, I want it to soak in and I want it to be lived in, you know?

Yeah, that's a good perspective and different from mine. Maybe you mentioned your heart type. I'm a head type. Right. So I gravitate more towards that head knowledge thing and accumulating knowledge or even with what I'm doing lately. The project I've been endeavoring on the past year is like a mormon history project, which I'm not believing LDS, but that's just I've obsessively consumed myself in this acquiring of knowledge, and it just gives me a lot of life.

But it's a different practice than learning about something and imbibing it, or, you know, just kind of having it be more this heart led thing where you assimilate to it and can live it out. Right. So that's different perspectives from us as we know, because we're married. But yeah, I have a obsessive thing where I really do gather a lot of information and I really enjoy doing that.

But I also need to be reminded, like what you're saying is it's not just about the head, it's not just about the information or the entertainment of it, because I find tons of entertainment in what I pursue in various ways. But there's this beauty in actually, you know, not just staying there, but but accumulating to live that out. I'm.

Yeah. I want to hear more about that from you, Sarina and Joel, if that resonates with you. Yeah. Yeah, it's I think it's great. And we were already starting to talk about, like, it's going to look different to each of us and it needs to because even though you and I are sevens, we're very different sevens. And, you know, we're we're very different people.

And so I think that having kind of an approach to wisdom that leads to transformation, that leads to us doing something different in the world from I think that's important. So thank you for for sharing that, Sarina. And then what other thoughts do you have around even like, you know, what is it that you hope for through this podcast endeavor?

Like we're jumping in and we're saying we want to we believe in emerging wisdom because we believe it emerges. It's not something that is like you said, it's not in me. I'm not the person. I'm not the guru here. Well, none of us are. I certainly don't feel like I am, but I feel like we're tapping into something that seems to be on the rise right now.

There's a hunger for for something more that I'm we're calling wisdom. So I'm hoping for that. But. But I'd love to hear kind of. What are you hoping for? Each of you. Sarina, we'll start with you. What are you hoping for through this podcast series? I love the idea of the organic nature of wisdom, that it's not this stagnant thing, you know, it's like this.

It's like a tree, as you saying, I like pictures. So I always try and think of imagery, but it's like this rooted tree that oftentimes a lot of what is wisdom is underground. It's it's a lot of stuff that people don't see. It's the secret. It's the secret and the sacred that really make up the core of what can bring life and produce fruit at which people are attracted to.

And that's what is sustaining, you know? But like if the root system is is weak, then the whole tree suffers. Right? And and so I just love this idea that wisdom, not just in trying to grow the root system and everything, but part of that process requires like pruning and requires like this cutting away of dead things, cutting away of old things that might have served for a season, but a serve for some time.

But then as things grow and mature and and the and the base of the tree like, and it starts taking more and more shape as to what it more integrity is, there's some pruning that needs to happen, and I feel like there's a lot of of that that needs to happen right now. So much like there's just so much noise out there, there's so much information, and it's almost like crafting the art of being able to prune, being able to cut away the excess, being able to deal with the discomfort of letting go of a part that served its time, that's that's now starting to hurt the, the, the whole system.

You know, I think of something someone who's wise in my life, my father, some of my father to wisdom. As I say, my maiden name was Chu. So Father Chu, he always would tell my sisters and I that every generation should get better and better. You know, he's an immigrant from Hong Kong that came over American Dream, you know, worked, worked as hard as he could to, like, give us a better life, give his children a better life.

There's this, like, generational connection and just how he approached life. And I just always heard that growing up was like this desire to want to be better and better. And so seeing with wisdom, it's like, I hope there's this trajectory of like we are as a society, getting hopefully wiser and wiser insomuch. But that process requires not just more and more and more.

There's this wisdom and, and and how to do it, you know. So that's that's some of my hope is that we can just give some, some pruning to the excess, maybe even though we're adding to the noise, it's kind of counterintuitive. Well hopefully not. Yeah, I think you're I think that's a great metaphor and one that we, we hope to bring.

I think we're already we've already started talking about there are things right now that we're observing in the religious world, in our tradition of faith. And then and then outside of that, that we're observing is like that, that just it it grew, but it didn't have the proper adversity it needed, or the people who were in leadership didn't respond well to the adversity that can actually grow you.

So that's another way of looking at the pruning. It's like, but in what way did you did the adversity when you faced it? How did you respond to it, to where what you're talking about is the root system. It's like what's done in in secret and the sacred, it's like, that is the stuff that oftentimes isn't brought out to the forefront.

And I think it's good for us to talk about, even in our own lives. Like, I can see things right now that have affected my relationship with my wife very negatively. That came from me, and how I'm seeing some deep things that have been there for a long time that I no longer need anymore. I need to learn how to grow through that.

Now. It's not a hacking of oneself or chopping away oneself. So I'm going to push the metaphor in a different direction, because it's not that that's what we're doing, but rather that we're saying there's some behaviors and practices that are not true to who we are as people, and we can let go of those. And then there's things that are more true and more beautiful and more good in us that is also trying to emerge.

Yeah. I mean, I think I think it's beautifully said what you brought here, Sarina and something that. Yeah, I share that hope I appreciate that. Yeah. Dan, what are some of your hope? I'm learning a lot from you guys already. So I feel like I'm going to learn from you guys as well as other people we have.

And you guys think so differently than me. Like, I've already kind of given away my hand here where I'm more of a head type, so. And I also, yeah, just think differently. So if you're out there going, wow, these guys are very deep and it seems abstract and profound and wise. Sage wisdom I'm right there with you people.

So I'm going to be the stand in for like the normal average person I am too. You are too. But but what you said was so profound. And I do think I do think more. I don't know differently than you know, I get it. Yeah, I got you. Fair, fair, fair point. Okay. That is, I just can't I just be the normal dumb person?

Well, you know what? You can be the fool and then we'll be the wise. And that's, I think, a great balance. Sorry to mention she's Chinese. She's after I'm mostly Irish. So I have a self-deprecating side to me, you know, from New England Irish. So I have a lot of self-deprecation. I'm okay. Don't worry about me when I talk about me being below intelligence and dumb.

That's just the way I. I'm also a type seven self. I got a lot going on that's going to lead me in that kind of verbal, you know, construction. Anyways, what am I looking forward to in this? Learning from you guys, learning from other people? I am a very curious person. So there are endless topics that I am legitimately just interested in and fascinated by and want to dive into.

And when I dive in, like I mentioned, the Mormon History Project, I am. It's this my fevered dreams of the Book of Abraham and my my day walking around is just, you know, meditations on the Navajo Temple and, you know, Hebrews C Kimball, it's just obsesses me and indwells within me and takes over because I'm so just interested in things that I'm interested in.

And that's a lot of things. So it's going to be that's going to just show up because I can't help it. But there's going to be our faith, my Christian faith, which has just been an integral part of my life, and the conversations we're going to have around that politics. I care about politics. I care about culture.

And, you know, whether it's music and sports and just happenings. So we're going to tie into all those different things with our conversations with and with some really fascinating people. I want to learn, I want to talk, I want to, in the curiosity comes from a place of wanting to grow again. I'm I lean, more self-deprecating. I lean more towards, I don't know, tell me, share with me.

I also lean more towards with that kind of similar vein, I assume I'm not right. I have convictions, I believe what I believe, I do hold strongly to the things I hold strongly to, but I'm not. I try not to be so rigid where I can't hear another, I can't be influenced. I can't be entertained. You know that.

I stay curious about your political viewpoint. You might tell it to me and I might completely disagree. I'm still open. I want to hear what you have to say about society and social justice and your faith, your religion, your experience with Christianity. And and I want to learn and I want to grow and I want to converse from that.

So but again, I might be in a more heady place at the start. Let's see, a hundred episodes from now, how I've transformed before everybody's eyes. And this will be an amazing, emotional and amazing test. Yeah, we can only hope. We can only hope to like, improve our marriage. Also, can I just give a disclaimer? I'm all about disclaimers.

I don't know what that says about my personality type. All I ever want to do. My inclination in life is to joke is to just as my wife, she knows better than anybody in the universe. I just wanted joke and have fun. So I'm going to try and do that because I can't help it even if I say I'm not gonna, but also lean into the the wisdom and the great robust, dynamic conversations we're going to have as well.

But I'm also going to probably joke. So fair warning, you've been warned. Now I can do it. So yeah. Well, the thing I think would be great also for us to do is to practice some wisdom, even in this we've already started, but probably go even maybe a little step further in practicing wisdom itself. Even as we are exploring wisdom.

Is that part of what wisdom requires is a deeper awareness of who we are. So. So you already started with that, Dan, talking about what are my proclivities? What are my biases? Do do I eat? Yeah. It's not like we know everything else. There's no such thing. There's just ever more growing in the awareness of who we are.

And and that's important as a means to not being self deceived or not, or at least moving away from our current self-deception into more, you know, being truthful about what's happening. So I'll start out by just saying I'll put my biases out there. You know, one of them being, I know that if someone sees something very differently than me, and it's contrary to how I see something, that internally I have a momentary like, oh, and then I want to, you know, push back, have my, you know, have my viewpoint stated there.

So it's that's going to come out, I'm going to have a reaction internally. And so what my commitment is to practicing what I've been practicing and even get better at it, which is to breathe just to notice it, to not get rid of it, but to understand that that's a part of who I am. And I think as I do that, it tends to relax a little bit so that I can be a bit more open and understanding of what where another person's coming from and that understanding.

So you can already feel that sometimes comes up for me in different conversations. So I just put that out there. That's a bias of mine and that's just one of many, but at least wanted to start with with saying that and inviting you as well. I appreciate Danny already stating your bias towards self and humor. Yeah, but anything else that you guys you both want to add to that?

Another kind of is adjacent with like another hope I have with the podcast is being able to be more comfortable and are and like have more content in the liminal space between these polarizing sides of things that we're used to is like, yeah, like for example, in in Christianity, in the faith world. Right? Like it's either like super, super dogmatic and really strict and like traditional and you don't veer and all of that or it's like I'm, we're it's like really like wacky and emotional and there is like anti dogma anti all of that.

And it's like can we be somewhere in the middle or even like with politics, anything that is like polarizing I just I feel like those, the polarized asides become so loud that that's mostly what we hear. And I just, I have hope that, like most of us, are kind of in the middle, most of us are not that extreme.

But like we share a little bit about showing what we are, but then we get backlash for being extreme. And so it becomes it's become really scary to express. It's become really scary to even even chew on a on a, on a, on something, even try it and like process through a thought or a conclusion and, and get backlash for not having figured out or being on this camp or that camp.

And it's like, can I just not have it figured out? And can I just like, talk about it and like, be curious or like, like kind of what I was saying, which I really love and appreciate about him, is like he is so cautious and careful to not get like make a determined conclusion, you know, like to be like, no, I know this, this.

Yeah, I know it's like when people are like that, it's just a wall. It's just immediately shuts you down from even they can be true to. They could be like 100% true. But if it's not that good and beautiful where it's like that, that cycling of of like inviting others like, is this actually helpful? Is this actually pulling me in and making me like, want to engage or is it a wall?

Is it shutting me down because it's so definitive that I can't I can't show up. I have to pretend or I have to, like, I just I hate that, and I and I feel like if we can have that space to be, to have complex conversations in, in clear ways, but in also like human ways like that are loving and respectful and authentic and can be messy too, but messy in the sense of like, not conclusive, like not messy in the sense of attacking or mean, you know, like so that's something that I know I always really appreciate about you.

Joel is like, you're so good at, like making sure people have a voice that whoever is around and then creating a through line so that there is connection. It's like if you if you guys have ever talked to Joel or like, maybe you know what I'm talking about, it's like this, this like superpower you have where it's like everybody can be in totally different angles and then you're somehow navigate this through line that connects us all and makes us feel like, oh, we're, we're we're a part of this.

Or like, there's something more to just than just me or I'm not weird, I'm unique, but yet connected. And that's like, I'm like, yes, I want more of that. And so. Well, you know, before you brought me up as like, you know, said all those beautiful things about me, I was more entranced by what you were saying and going, yeah, that's that's what I want more of.

So I'm not like, looking at myself like, yeah, I'm the I've got this. I'm the one who's. It's like I was so like, yes, I'm committed to that vision that you've just laid out. Like, I want to live into what you're saying. So, like, I'm I'm compelled by that. I think the language you put to it is very inviting and very appealing to me.

So thank you. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah. I resonate with all that too. That was well stated. To try to add my perspective to that and to kind of jump off that. I agree. Like one thing I think you said two is we don't have everything figured out or all these conclusions. Yeah, I'm not big on conclusions because that's kind of shuts down conversation.

And I don't like to do that. Like you're saying, I do believe and I don't want to speak for you guys, but you probably do to in objective truth like I do. Hold that there is objective truth. Yeah. That's true. Something true out there for sure, I just don't. I'm not so bold enough to say that I have it all figured out in the religious realm, in the political realm, the social around the parenting realm, all these realms, there's a good there's a there's a true, there's a standard.

I do believe that it's not all relative. It's just I'm curious about what it looks like. And I think I know some things, but not everything. So I want to keep exploring that. I do try to stay in a place of nuance. I've spoken about nuance in various circles before. That is a word I like to use, and it's a way I like to think, because I do think like you're saying we're left right?

We're black, white, binary thinking it's this or that that's so unhelpful in our spiritual life. It's like, because we love labels for for something, not the three of us. Society and we're part of society loves to label people, oh, you voted for that person. You are a this and that. This is usually a very bad thing. And the same goes for the other side.

Oh, you voted for them. You're a this. And that's all they see now. Oh, you go to that church, you follow that leader, you don't go to church. You are now a this and it's a this and a that. It does it even with doctrine. Like if you say if you leak anything that that for them feels like that's outside the, there could be a doctrinal issue within the same faith movement under the same leader.

And that you have a label, you have a stigma. You've got to have the scarlet letter. It happens with politics, especially lately or for all of our history. But I'd want to get away from labels, get into more of like being understanding, forgiving, and gracious with people. Like, again, I'll draw a lot of parallels with politics and religion, so I'll do that right now, like the progressive liberal movement progressing in society, progressing in social causes.

Good thing, good inclination. There's been a lot of good done. Now me just saying that and even saying those words just irritated, irritated people that have a feeling to them, don't worry, I'm not going to go there. But when we label and when we go, oh, you know, anything of that label is bad and then anything on their side is good.

We defeat ourselves because there's no nuance, there's no understanding, and there's no forgiveness. Now, at the same time, if we are progressing so fast that if things have been done the same way for 10,000 years or however many years you want to say, and then we change the way we do things as a society, and you don't immediately fall in line.

I feel like there's a lot of lack of understanding and grace and forgiveness on the people that are progressing forward at the same time, and there's a label that happens there to that's probably a conversation to be had to can we give people grace to catch up to where you're at, or to think about it or to discuss?

Can we talk? Can we communicate as a society, or are you progressing so fast? And the other side is resisting so much that we're just going to be a complete polar opposites because there's no common ground. And again, I'm not saying one is right, one's wrong ones the good or one's the bad, but there's just a this and a that.

And the presumption that you're bringing up the presumption is that the wisdom I have, all the wisdom, you know, and and so now I've got to convince you that you're wrong and that you need to see it my way because you've been labeled and that label becomes a team moniker. Yeah. You're on a team. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Instead of, like, the ability to look at it as I'm likely wrong. Right. The starting point I think of of practicing wisdom. One of them is, I mean, it's even in the to use scripture, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. That's always been viewed by, well, it's there's been a lot of confusion around that.

I think people have have been recoiled at the fear of God is like, be afraid of God. And that's yeah, I agree, that's not the point. But we've all been inspired and even a little bit nervous to get around somebody who does something in a way that is exceptional and that we admire and that we would like to be more like, right, you get around people meeting, say, Michael Jordan, the Basketball Hall of Famer, you know, and shook his hand.

You would be if you knew anything about basketball and you loved basketball, you would shake a little bit. You'd be a little nervous. You'd be a little bit like, you know, this is an impressive person, right? And and so imagine him saying, hey, you know, you're a kid, you're a teenager and you love basketball. And he comes along and says, hey, I'd love to mentor you in playing.

Would you be interested in that? And if you were like, oh, you know nothing about basketball, I'm good. I got it that obviously that would be anybody would be your fool. Right? But if you said, My God, I'm scared out of my mind, you know, this guy is going to coach me. He's going to train me. Yeah.

And that would be an amazing thing. And that would be the proper location of fear. And in that sense, the fear of God is that, to my mind, is that kind of thing of like, you have to approach life with humility, that you don't know everything and that you don't, and that there are people out there who will say something that you maybe hadn't thought about or perfective, you hadn't engaged in.

Yeah, it's me I was thinking about, like the importance of curiosity and how I maybe think of, you know, when there's always that stage that that we go through or kids have where the why stage, right where they're just always asking why. Why. Right. And if you're a parent, you kind of when you parent that you it can feel very frustrating because it's a never ending cycle of just curiosity.

And as humans, you know, we can't keep up with that and give all the answers. Right. And so it's unfortunate that gets shut down in us. Right? Like when we were little kids and we were asking the why and then it gets shut down or, you know, said just because or we were just given these walled up answers that I think sometimes it might have atrophied that muscle in us.

And there is this level of of courage, I think, that takes with being curious because it can be painful. It can. Yeah. Be that similar experience of like, oh, I was when I was curious before I got shut down or this led to an answer I didn't like or I didn't understand fully, and I had to do more.

And the, you know, there wasn't enough like patience or the connection was severed because it was, I don't know, whatever the experience was. But there's this like connection, I think, with an atrophied like curiosity muscle that's connected to a, I don't know, pain or discomfort. At the very least, it's a very it's a very uncomfortable space. Yeah.

And so just reminded me of like, man, I really when people are curious, it is a sign of wisdom. To me it is this like, oh man, it just feels so welcoming and like safe again when when somebody shows curiosity towards you, it it's an inviting feeling. It makes you want to engage. It makes you want to to show up more.

And so I think I think that's something super important to another element. Well, I think that's perfect. I think it's really, well, really well explained. And then to add on to that, my my add on would be let's go deeper because it's one thing to be curious and it's another thing to allow someone else to impact you.

Very often they can remain very head center. And I know that being a seven, I can totally see you want to go deeper. I was going to try to come up for air. Yeah, I well it was this very deep. Again. We need we need polarities in life. You're going to be the polarity to to my polarity.

So I love it I do so yes. So I'm glad you're, you're you're staying in that role. Yeah. Don't say paintings like don't say she said. She said a lot of triggering words. Pain vulnerability discomfort discomfort emotions say awful awful. Give me all of that. And Joel goes let's go deeper and deeper. Yeah. So it's good. This is let's plumb the depths of that.

Well, I don't like paint either, but the impact of being impacted by people I think has produced some the reward of that. There's a. I don't like pain either. But the reward of it. No nobody nobody likes it but the but the I think what we shield ourselves from and you know, my favorite poet is David White talks about that.

You know, where we protect or so we shield ourselves from being affected by other people. And so that is part of the problem, I think, to our ability to do this thing that you're talking about, which is that curiosity that moves us towards that openness and that is a vulnerable place to be. There's no question. I do not by any in any way say I've got this down or, you know, figured out.

Not at all. It's extremely difficult. I fail more than I succeed at it. But I think that that's a worthwhile value for us to have worthwhile. And goal is to continue to see if we can lean into being affected by even views we don't like. And I think if we're being honest, that's that's going to happen, right?

We're going to have these in our own conversations between us, and we're going to have them when we interview these people that are sort of experts in their fields. So yeah, this is so interesting to me. And again, I think I'm learning as well as hopefully other people that listen to this are learning. You guys are marrying curiosity with pain and vulnerability and discomfort and all that, which is I take it in a different way.

I am very, very curious. But the vulnerability and the discomfort doesn't appear as much for me. I'm very unaffordable to I and I try to stay on offended. Well, I'm naturally predisposition to being unaffordable. That could be an avoidance of those discomfort emotions and the pain and the vulnerability. I don't know, I don't want to get too clinical here.

It's going to be the impact part is what is where it gets painful. Is the impact okay. Yeah. Because I love curiosity. Yeah. So no I mean deep people here. Yeah that's the fun part. But it's interesting where you're taking it. It's different than where I take it. And maybe I have different core motivations for why I'm curious about this subject or that subject and what I'm doing with it.

It could be a more an entertainment level, but I don't know. I simulate a lot of it. A lot of it is around spirituality and and stuff that is deep and meaningful. So I'm just yeah, I'm interested to hash these things out. Well, and I'm saying impact is not a negative thing. So it's like it can it has definitely the side of it that feels uncomfortable to us, but also has the side of it that's a that's compelling.

So for example inspiring inspiring. Exactly. Sure. I have that happen. You know, when we were talking, you know the interview that will release later. You know, that was there were moments of feeling really inspired by what John Kroto was sharing and and John Turner, you know, with the, the podcast that we did there to it was very like there were moments of oh, right.

So I'm pulled, right? Yeah. I don't want to be unaffected. That's the thing that is so easy for me to do. I see there's some ability got. Yeah, yeah. That's part of the to me. That's part of my work on wisdom is like stay allow yourself to be affected but also be in relationship. Yeah. Like those two for me are the challenge.

And and I hope to be able to practice that. And I'm looking forward to the challenge of that. Like can we have people that on our podcast that were like, wow, that's a you know, we're not going to just sort of go, hey, let's find somebody that's really triggering to all of us. But more so, like as we're feeling that be okay with the entertainment value of that.

But I'm sure you would. I'm sure you would, particularly if it's really triggering to me or something or to Sarina. It better. So I would just shut down and be quiet. I gotta, I gotta live with her. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You could, you could enjoy me having being rattled a little bit, but yeah, I mean, it's like I want to have those challenges because that means we're actually having real conversations with people that we're not just an echo chamber looking to have people that agree with us on this podcast.

We're looking to really explore difficult topics and see things that are that we're see that's happening right now and be able to do that with open minds, open hearts, but also kind of moving forward to like, can we take a different course of action? Because I don't think it's I don't want this podcast to just be like, well, we explored forever but landed not, you know, didn't land anything.

So there's a high side and a low side of my curiosity and wanting to stay nuanced and open and curious. There's there is a low side to that. I'm not. Again, hopefully people don't take me as somebody that's bragging about anything because I've already been pretty open about that. But there is a there is a downside to being so open.

You don't land on anything at a certain point. You need to actually not just accumulate, listen to and sit under wisdom, but you need to actually assimilate it. You need to actually experience it and live it out. So I do have a propensity to stay open about a lot of things, not land two hardly in this political thing, that religious thing, or that whatever people are galvanized around and there can be a negative aspect to that.

So I want to learn and grow in that and see what's the wisdom in landing places and, and having more certain thoughts or maybe more forward thoughts and feelings and, and expressions of certain things. What is that balance look like? You know, it doesn't look authoritarian. It doesn't look demeaning or aggressive necessarily, but it might look a little bit differently than where I've been at historically, or what I feel comfortable in historically, as far as, you know, trying to stay neutral and nuanced and balanced, a good leader sometimes whatever leadership, you know, impact you have on whatever group of people does make more certain claims and decisions and comes to some conclusions.

Right. So I want to stay open to even that aspect and be honest with myself. Like I love not labeling, but maybe is there a wisdom in a label sometime there could be even that. And again, I guess that is nuance, right? Where it isn't black or white, it isn't all or nothing, but I want to kind of personally explore what where does the wisdom lead me in, in actually landing places at times?

And what does that look like? Yeah. Or even just maybe a bit different term might be more more appealing to us is it's not just it may not be just landing, but landing didn't feel completely right. I want to hear this. Okay, good. Because to me it feels like more of like we've chosen a path. A path is better than a lady.

I didn't like landing. That's good. And then the path can course correct as we continue to learn more. And because no end point, there's no end point. There's always. But we've chosen a path. We're not just sort of going and we're just going to be okay. Yeah. I'm the imagery that came up for me. You're very good. Is it?

I think of paint. I think of color. And when you don't land and it's just okay, all colors are welcome. Let's mix them all up. You just get gray, you get mud, you get. Yeah. Murky. It gets, it gets. There's no you can't differentiate one from another. And there's nothing to kind of give a picture to. There's nothing to, to cause contrast and and contrast is good.

You need that now. High contrast the black and the white the polarization. That's a limited palette as well. All right. Like that's not a good thing. So is there a place where we can actually pick up colors. Like can we add to our color wheel. Like that's what I want to do. It's like maybe we started off with the primary colors and now, you know, like through life you pick up the secondary colors of like green oranges and stuff like that.

But like, can we add those like other hues and, and like to, to your, to our palette. And so, so it is defining. It is like letting colors be them. But blues not just one shade. There's many shades of blue. So can we give space for blue to be more than just this one tone? Like there's so much depth and creativity within the shade and the color blue, right?

Like, so that's where I'm like, I want things defined, but I also want to give, give that curiosity in that space to for whatever the color is, whatever the truth is to be all that it is. And perhaps it's more than what I thought it was at first. And maybe I've only been introduced to these three hues of blue, but there's actually 30, and it's like, oh man, like that's fun, because then then your palate can, like, really get so diverse, you know?

And and so I think that that gets me more excited. Yeah. And like thinking of it in that way, I think of the line from Hamilton, I love to play Hamilton, where Aaron Burr isn't landing anywhere, and he's obfuscating what his true beliefs are and tiptoe around that. And they go, if you stand for nothing, Burr, what will you fall for?

It's just a catchy, clever line. And I think of that line a lot. It's like you don't want to be so abstract and noncommittal that you just are kind of blown by the wind, or you never land anywhere. So I do like that. I do like the word used of choosing a path, choosing a direction, having conviction is good, you know, it's good to have beliefs and pursuits and all that stuff.

So yeah, you don't want to be so open to everything that is just chaos and anything goes, you know? Because that could be that could be overwhelming. I mean, as a bias that I have or a lot blinder that I have is that shapeshifting. And like I, for the sake of connection, for the sake of not ascending, I will minimize what I might believe or really stand for even what I think in order to do it.

Or do you temporarily do it with the the one or the people or group in front of you? Do you actually change what you believe or you just? I don't necessarily change what I believe, but I minimize and I quiet the voice of what I believe. Right. And sometimes that can get in conflict with like behavior even, you know, like if there's if there's a difficult decision in work or something or that needs to be made, like I'll often being asked the question, well, what do I actually think that's hard for me to not reference?

Well, what do they think? What do they think? What's going to be the best thing, like to actually quiet all those other voices and, and tune into what do I actually think? What is my conviction that is like, that's a blind spot I have like, because I'll just want to like a piece just like, let's get along.

Let's make sure we're all okay. You know, I don't want to be too. I don't want to be disturbing. I don't want to be embarrassing. I don't want to be, you know, so, so growing in the muscle of, like, wait, what is my conviction? And can I say it and act on it in confidence and in truth, not to be offensive, but to just stand for something to to be a color, to not just be gray and like, yeah, murky.

And Joel, we're going to have to take us home here. But we're, we're getting into some deep stuff like even that right there. You just hashed out kind of how you deal with those situations and kind of what your motivations are as to why. And I have a similar outward personality, but my internal core motivations of that are different.

It might be because I don't want this emotion that's coming up or this I don't want this person to feel like this, and I or I selfishly want to feel like this. So that's why I'm minimizing what I believe in and minimizing my convictions. But the core motivation is totally different. So even getting into some of that, as we kind of deal with different, you know, things that we're going to bring up in spirituality and culture and life and family and politics and all that.

We all have even similar personalities outwardly, but different things going on inwardly. And I think that can relate to a lot of different people that might listen to this. Well, it's making room, I think. Sarina I love I love the part of the analogy that has to do with, like, you know, bringing in other colors, like, I think bringing in your own voices, bringing in your own color, as you're saying, and it's also bringing in the colors of other people.

And, you know, for all of us, we're going to have different areas of struggle when it comes to doing, you know, what philosophers have long talked about even before the apostle Paul? But the apostle Paul certainly picked up on this theme, which is how do you do the one in the many that's that's near impossible. Like nobody's figured it out.

It's like, how do you both bring yourself forward but also learn how to do the group, how to participate, how to be part of others, to be in relationship with others. How do you do multiplicity of people? I mean, that's the human challenge is you either because you lose yourself in the world of others and so you just sort of following along or you sort of stand out from that.

There's factions, there's, you know, clicks, there's there's all kinds of challenges to doing the one of the many. And and that, I think is the way of wisdom. And so it stands as a, as kind of a call to all of us. Can you do the one of the many? This is one of the things that I think the questions are more important than the answers.

The questions are the things that guide us, like, can you do the one of the many? Well, we have figured out some things that we do, but that question still is so, so big. And it's always compelling to me. How do I bring myself in and speak? And I had a moment recently where I was part of an interview panel, and I knew going in I was going to be anxious, and I knew going in what my predisposition is when I'm anxious, and then I pull way back on myself and I go silent.

And I watched myself do that, and I thought, how do I, how do I, how do I engage? I don't even know how to engage. And so it was just so frustrated with myself for the first like 30 minutes. And then of course afterwards I'm like, you know, you know, frustrated. I should have said this. I could have done it.

So I did this whole thing afterwards. All the cause, the anxiety got the best to me, and I could not step in and do the thing that I felt like I was there for. And and in other cases I do the opposite, where I'm like stating my claim, you know, because I'm it can also be intense. And so, you know, this is what I believe and this is insistent on it.

And so I think the challenge is, you know, for a lot of people tends to be around doing the one of the many figuring out how to do it and how to have that color palette within many variety of colors, where we're learning to do relationship with disagreements with different views, but deepening our understanding around the disagreements, not being afraid of them because I know people who are like, oh yeah, we all disagree on different things, but you never engage in it.

You never talk about you. So there's no so there's no wisdom gained from that. All you're doing is just tolerating. Where do you engage in a robust kind of conversation? Where there are you're going to impact each other, you're going to be affected. And then at the same time, like relax, breathe, allow that information to affect you.

Maybe suddenly you'll see something. Maybe you'll understand what they're saying for the first. Oh, that's what you mean by that. Oh, now I understand all of these things are possible when you know, we. But by practicing, right. It's not like you arrive at a place of like, you know, I'm now perfectly able to do the one of the many.

It's more like, what is the practice? Like I said, I mean, 30 minutes into this interview and I was frustrated with myself, but at least the last like 30 minutes I showed up and in the past the whole hour would have gone by and I wouldn't have done it right. Anything else? I guess. Just one last disclaimer I love disclaimers.

For some reason I talk. I just give lots of disclaimers, but don't hold me accountable. Don't know. Well, if you are listening, here's the self-deprecating part. Not that anybody would listen to me for this kind of advice, but if you want me to pick which denomination is the right one, which politicians? The good one? Which is the bad one, which person out there is good?

Or that's I'm just I don't go there. I don't think in those terms I hold things open. I have opinions on all of that, and I have reasons for all of that. And I want to know your people's opinions and reasons and other people's opinions for all that. But I'm not going to be one of those commentators that says, this is the thing.

This is why. And if you don't do it, that's crazy. You know, it's just there's so much out there like that. You could go on so many podcasts and turn on any channel, and somebody's telling you who to vote for, somebody telling you who not to like, and what's wrong with this person? And I'm just I'm not into that.

I'm not there for that. So we're going to explore all of it and give our reasons and talk and grow and learn. And it's going to be fun, hopefully fun. I like the fun part. Sarina, any final thoughts? Yeah, I just I really hope wisdom can be approached to the masses, like be approachable to the masses. Like, I just have such a desire to want everyone to live life well and feel like they are making meaning that they matter and and how they are and why they are is intentional and and good and beautiful and true.

But it might take some work to discover, and it might take some conversations. And you can't do it alone, like I if I can give any wisdom preemptively, it is like, don't do it alone. Like, yes, we need each other. We need those conversations. And hopefully this could be a space where the more awkward conversations can happen, or practicing the muscle of being curious and undefended, but also clear on what we believe is like, can be can be developed.

You know, because I just want I want people to to engage. I want them to be present. I want them to know that that that they are wise, like they are wise, and they can grow in their wisdom and they have something to offer and they're yeah, they have something to offer and, and and they can grow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this has been wonderful. And it got to a place where I feel good about what we just did. And I kind of test things by. How do I feel internally after this. You know. And sometimes it's a good disruption. Yeah that's good too. And but there's other moments of like yeah that's that's right for me that feels in my body that feels right, that feels good.

And I feel that. I feel that also in my heart feels warm and and my mind feels relaxed and open. So that's a good place to be. And yeah, thanks to both of you for this wonderful conversation. Likewise. It's fun.