Jesse Eubanks: Discovering Desire Through The Enneagram Part 1 - Ep. 7

Merging Wisdom All right. Well, welcome to Merging Wisdom podcast. I am super excited to have Jesse Eubanks with us along with my co-host today, Sarina. And we're going to dive into an awesome topic, one that I'm fascinated by, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on Jesse. But also, you know, I mean, I've, I've listened to your wonderful podcast and it's just it's kick ass.

I mean, the stuff that you do there is so good. And I was mesmerized because it was, you know, not you were just saying this just before we started. It's like it is just, you know, beautiful and so many ways, but also super interesting. And so you've managed to pull together the esthetics and also the content. Sometimes you see, you know, groups that will sacrifice one for the other.

I don't think you sacrificed on either side. It's really well done. And, and also, you're an Enneagram guy, which I am, too. So that that's fun. And, you know, I suppose I should say some things about how, amazing you are here. You've done so many things. My gosh, I love you. I love this intro. Like I really am. Just. Yeah, guys. Thanks.

You just keep on going. Oh, yeah. More things to say. Yeah. Okay. Oh, man. Your podcast producer. Journalist. I mean, you've done the the any a cast. I remember that from years ago. You've written for like contributions for Christianity Today by Logos, the Holy Post, which is a fantastic podcast. My nephew actually is the one who introduced me to that.

He's like, hey Uncle Joel, have you heard of them? They were really cool. So, Yeah. I love their work. Those guys are great. They are, they are. But, so yeah, you've done so many different things, and now you're onto this new project. With wonder. And, I'm curious a little bit about let's maybe start there. Like, tell us a bit about what your what your passion is, what moves you, what makes you say, this is a need that I see and I really want to do something here.

Well, I think, like, you know, any of us that does creative work like the, the best, you know, stuff is going to come out of, you know, you pick up your phone and you're like, I really wish there was a podcast about X. And you do that over and over and over again, and then eventually, you know, when you have the opportunity to actually make that thing.

It's like, you know, for me, it's like a decade of wishing something like that existed. Like I, you know, 15 years ago, I remember, like, getting in my car and like, flipping through the radio and I hear this random voice and it's telling the story of Jerry Springer being, you know, the weather guy in Cincinnati and then the mayor of since all these crazy and of course, like, it turns out like that was Ira Glass.

That was the first time I'd ever heard This American Life and and then eventually fumbling my way over and into the work that Radiolab does. And so I just became sort of a fan of that whole world of really wonderful storytellers. Yeah, but there really wasn't one that was doing it sort of with a Christian existential bent to it. And, I really wanted to do something that was, really, really like great, fascinating stories with, like, wonderful music that sounded great to listen to.

But it also was like really, truly exploring the questions that all of us as human beings, you know. Yeah, have have wrestled with forever. You know, if you think backwards in time, you think about, like, our ancestors sitting around the campfire and looking up at the stars. What are the questions they were asking? We're probably asking the same things.

And and what does it mean for us to be able to to explore those things with curiosity? Yeah. That's not, diluted with fear. You know? Yeah, yeah. I also didn't feel like there was a whole lot of propaganda in what you were doing. Which is like such a relief because sometimes going into this, you're like, oh, boy.

Okay, here's a mixture of Christian Christianity and science. And then it's like, but it's really more like I'm trying to force my the science that I have into my frameworks that I already hold on. You took a different approach entirely. It's like you're telling the story and and I think whenever these, you know, propaganda takes over stories gone.

Right. And I, I mean, to me ties into everything like beauty and humanity and and depth and richness. I mean, yeah, not I don't I don't suspect you struggled with, like, not doing the propaganda piece, but, but I feel like you're filling you're definitely filling a hole there that's very needed. Well, I appreciate you saying that. And and it's always a balancing act on.

Sort of like, how do we allow, people's genuine faith to sort of come through in some of the, the stories that they're telling and, and really, what we've come to realize is, like, if it is a natural, true motivator for a person, it's actually disingenuous for us to remove that from their story. That's true. Yeah. For the sake of sort of upsetting somebody.

And then in the flip side, to not necessarily feel the compulsion of like, but we have to make sure that we say x, y, z, you know, out of our own sort of unresolved stuff. So, but yeah, I mean, a lot of the folks so we, you know, all of our episodes, we're exploring the intersection of science, science, faith in the search for or is really what we say.

And when you sit down and you have all these conversations with scientists, they all, you know, largely, overwhelmingly, they get to this point where they go, there's so much we can measure. And then there's some this other thing that we just don't know what to make sense of. That does become the saying where they go, you have to reach beyond science.

And then I think any of us that are people of faith, like we come from a place where there can be a temptation to sort of go like, I've got the answers for everything, but if we're being honest, there's a great deal of mystery on that side as well. And there's, you know, we are we're we are beneficiaries of the enlightenment.

Like, we've learned a lot of things the last few hundred years, you know, that are pretty important. So, when I go to the hospital, thank you for the enlightenment. I would please, you know, you can save the leeches. I'll be glad to take some actual medicine and open heart surgery, you know? Yeah. Yeah, entirely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a that's the pulling together the both end as opposed to ending up in some kind of, you know, one, one side of things.

And that's always tougher. We have a story is very story holds both. Right. It's like, you know, whenever we tell stories where there isn't a like Jim and I were talking about this recently, Jim's my co-host on, on another podcast, and he said, I listen for stories that have people describing themselves as either the hero only or the victim only in a situation like that is a great that is a great ear for story.

Like it should involve a lot more of those components as well. So yeah. Our, our first episode of, of one, we tell the story of a couple of the guys that, that built the Webb telescope, and it was a $10 billion endeavor took two, two decades to build it. And, and it's really fascinating to your point is like the most spiritually profound moment that sort of happens in the episode is also when the guy goes, and I was definitely drunk.

And so there's this weird sort of intersection of like, here, too much to drink, but also like he had this spiritual epiphany and, and like, you know, you know, we had some folks that suggested that be edited out for certain audiences. And we said, no, no, that's that's the real story of what happened. So we're gonna we're gonna share that.

I love it, I love it. If we were to go down that rabbit trail, my gosh, I mean, I could we could talk about a lot of things, including like religious movements, Christian religious movements that began with people doing smoking weed, like. Right, right. Yeah. The denomination I pastored in for a bunch of years. That's the story. That's the story.

But a lot of it was tried to be cleaned out of there. And, but that is, that's in there. It's all part of it. Yeah. So, yeah, we're we're a mixture of all of these things and to, to not ever validate them or, you know, dismiss them. It's just like, no, it's just part of the story that we tell.

I think this would be a good segue to talk about desire is, is something that is that tends to also be a mixed bag within the religious movement. And you've done a lot of work and a lot of thinking on that topic of desire, and how even our personalities are formed around it. So I'd love for you to just sort of, you know, and I were like, yeah, but let's start with like, even defining desire because, like, desire can be a mix of different competing things internally for us.

So maybe thinking about like, how do you frame that? Yeah. You know, because of the age in the era that we live in and depending on the background we come from as well. Like sometimes you almost have to start with what is it not. And because for a lot of us, when we, you know, depending on our background, we hear desire.

It's so instantaneously sort of connects to sex and sexuality that it can be hard for some folks to even, you know, really consider desire in a more holistic way because you bring it up. And it has, for some folks, just this, you know, like, oh, this is a conversation about sex. And it's like, it can be about sex, but it's that's downstream from this much bigger, yeah thing.

And so, you know, desire is it's just it's just this very strong feeling of wanting something that we believe that we do not currently possess in its fullness. So it can even be something that we have in part. But it's this desire of like, there's something out there that I just want to take hold of in its totality.

And that thing is, is just, is profound. And I think it's also worth saying, like, not desiring is not an option. Like, you know, to to be alive is to desire. And, you know, when we think about personality like it's it is what is fueling our, our thinking, our emotions, our doing like desire is the thing that is pushing and driving all of that.

So, so really it's not a question of whether we desire, don't desire, but it's what do we desire and how are we pursuing it? Okay, Sarina, what comes up for you as you're hearing this? I get a lot of things I. Love that it's impossible to not desire unless there's, like, a intense, numbing going on which, hey, we can experience even partially in our lives sometimes.

But the awakening to desire, I almost wonder because. So for me, sometimes tuning in to to my innate desire. And I love how you defined it beyond just like relationship or sexuality or anything, but just even like passion or calling or draw, like what's kind of fueling that fuel. I love desire as fuel. How do you how would you say we, like, find it, even tune into it when there's, like, noise out there or just narratives in our head that can kind of cloud it?

Yeah. So I think this is probably a helpful time to sort of talk about this other idea, which is where where's our desire going? Like, what is it that we want? And there's a, there's a really wonderful psychologist named Doctor Kirk Thompson, and he wrote this great book called The Soul of Desire. And one of his biggest points that he makes in the book is the idea that desire always follows beauty.

So across the board, whatever is beautiful, whatever we perceive as beautiful, that is where our desire will flow toward. Now, that, you know, does not necessarily mean that it's a statically beautiful, but it means that it's something that we find worthy and compelling and life giving and satisfying and important and essential. But, I think it's always worth paying attention to.

What? What are the things that my mind, my heart, my longings keep coming back to? There's something within that that I'm finding very beautiful. And I think it's also worth saying, even if some, you know, I don't think any of us hopefully would be naive enough to say all my desires are good. Like I've got a competition of desires within me.

But I think that even the ones that are like, kind of jacked up. If I really sit down and I consider but what's under it? Like what's the kernel even that's wrapped up in sort of this really jacked up thing, you know, classic example always give is, you know, if there's a, a married couple and, you know, one of them is like, I really want to have an affair.

What is it that's under that? Is it a desire, really to, like, blow up their life and ruin their relationship with their kids? No, but it is a desire for. I wish somebody saw me. I wish somebody chose me. I wish that my life wasn't mundane and boring. I wish that I could feel the vibrancy I used to feel as a teenager.

You know, there's all these things that are good and out of, you know, desperation and brokenness like it goes in the wrong direction. So. So I think that fundamentally, that's a great place to start is just this idea of desire moves towards beauty. So when we're discerning, what is it that I want? Which for me, you know, as a person of faith, like I dial in like Jesus asked that question, like, what do you want?

It's such a wonderful, profound question. And, and so when I asked that and sometimes the truth is we say we don't know. And then it does become a little bit of work, a little bit of trial and error. I'm going to go put my hands on things and kind of see, do I come alive? Do I diminish, am I terrified?

But I think that beginning with the question of what do you want? And then unpacking that in a community that's safe, that invites that, you know, whether that's within your marriage, your closest friends, you know, your broader community, but a space where you're able to say what I want and then you kind of go try things. But I think the other thing, too, is really pay attention to pay attention to your daydreams, pay attention to what it is that's really kind of setting you off emotionally because the anger is protecting something.

There's something that you really value that feels under threat. That's why the anger is showing up. So there's a lot of different inroads that we can take, towards that. But I do think, you know, to our conversation today, I think that the Indian game actually offers a lot of shortcut. And by that only mean like, not that we get to go around the work, but that it gives us some pretty strong clues that allow us to kind of fast track our investigation.

Yeah, because that's the whole idea. The whole idea with nine personalities, it's nine desires. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's parts of it that I want to dive into in parts of it that I'm like, should I table that for. If we were to do a part two. One of the things that comes up immediately is people both like, you know, Sarina, you were hinting at that it is difficult sometimes to find your own desires.

And, Jesse, you gave us some good tips as to start to think about what's provoking you, you know, what do you dream about? What do you spend your time looking at? You know, those those sort of clues. But there's also some, you know, fears within a lot of people around desire, like, it can lead us into, you know, poor decision making.

Right? And this is a fear of I might do something wrong in the Christian world. I might sin, right? I might, you know, I might end up disappointing God or disappointing my church, or there's a lot of fears that people have that are then supported by a lot of sermons that have aimed at pushing down those desires.

Right. And, of course you have. The two is more than two. But there were two major schools for a while in Greek philosophy competing against each other, both trying to deal with the appetites of the body. Right. So you had the Stoics, you had the Epicureans. And Epicureans are mostly misunderstood, but they but, you know, because I'm an epicurean as a seven, but, you know, anyways, there's that but there's this sort of like, how do you respond to the appetites that tend to lead towards chaos, that tend to lead towards destruction?

Right. There's that component in there as well that I think some people are more predisposed to fearing that in resisting that. And you talk about Enneagram types, you could name them. But there are these n by the way, instincts as well that are more oriented towards towards that. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Well, even then I would say that it's not that, you know, what happens in a lot of those contexts.

I don't think that people are saying, squash your desires. They're saying these are the desires that should be prioritized, and these are the desires that should not. It's still there, still desires still on the table. And I think that that it's helpful for us to remember that, that the two pitfalls that we tend to go into with desires is an exaggerated desire and a diminished desire.

The exaggerated desire becomes a we put in too much stock into it. We want it to do more than it's actually capable. Capable of doing. Yeah. And then therefore, we become these exaggerated, you know, caricatures of personality. The flip side, though, is that when that one gets exaggerated, guess what? It's going to diminish any desire that it feels as a threat to it.

And so, so that's that's the whole thing, right? With the growth areas is you're leaning in typically to somewhere else within the gram. That literally, in some ways feels like a threat to the exaggerated desire of your type. And so, so yeah, so I do I think that we do live in a world in which, you know, social media feeds us all these visions and images of what life is supposed to be like and live long enough.

And you know, you're not it's it's not lost on me. How many of us, like, feel content and then we get on social media. Oh, and then we're just like, my life is the worst, you know? Like, everybody else has a good life. My life sucks. And so, so I do think it is something about, like what has captured our imagination, what is giving us a vision for for life.

I do think that we need to pay attention to where my desires exaggerated. They are. They're going over the top, you know, and typically it's a sign of, like, what am I willing to do to get this desire met? Because chances are I'm crossing lines that I actually don't agree with. That's that's how fundamental. And then and then of course the diminish as well.

And you know, strange to your point. Like, you know, I think you alluded to this a minute ago, there winds and grief and trauma. They come in and they shape things. You know, we're not this blank slate. How many of us have a longing and desire when we were young? Then life came and just us, and we don't even have it. Like, you know, the idea of even hoping for certain things is so painful because the idea of I'm never going to have that, I'm never going to get that thing.

And so therefore we, you know, put to death that that part of us. And so I think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of, grace and mercy that has to be applied to it because the reality is we nobody nobody's getting everything they want. You know, if you think about Jesus in the garden, he prays, not your will be done, but not my will be done.

But yours and theologians call it holy indifference. It's this idea of, yeah, I want this thing I do, I want it, I want to name it. And the reality is, I may not get it. And, and that's a painful, a painful journey. Yeah. And I think, though, that the transformational journey causes us to then discover deeper desires that are actually more already aligned with the with the divine, with God.

I think I think, like you were saying at the beginning. Our desires are oriented towards beauty, right? And towards something beyond us. There's something that starts inside of us or that is within us, but then it pulls us towards, transcendence. And yeah. That is where I think if we allow the transformational journey, then it does become nevertheless not my will, but yours be done.

And then there's a restful that enters in, and then there's a, oh, there's something even deeper that I actually love even more than what I thought I loved beforehand. And I think we've all experienced, I'm sure all three of us have experienced that, within our own journeys. Yeah, I think about like when I was younger and, you know, just certain desires were just like they were taking up, like, so much more real estate inside of myself than.

Oh yeah. Then were like, what was reasonable. And and then as you age, yeah, there is a sense of where it's like, gosh, there's so many other good things to long for and to strive for beyond the one thing. So, so yes, I yes, I'm with, you know. Is there a difference between like a desire for like an achievement or a goal?

And granted, that might be my filter, so please forgive that, but help me get out of it then. Of like like I want to pursue a dream, say, like, you know, young people, you have dreams to like I want to. Or even just, like a desire to get married and have a family or have a career or be an artist or or start a business, you know, like whatever desire, we can put that in a, in a, a, a category, right.

But then that under like belly of like kind of the, the essence of that driving desire beyond just like a manifestation of a goal. What is that like the desire for connection, the desire for legacy, the desire for significance. Right. Like which? Which harkens back to like the grant being this great tool for like short cutting to those like those main like sources of driving.

And so I think it's just like trying to like filter like, okay, what's the the driving desire that's manifesting in this goal or this manifestation or a practice of it. And, and where do I judge, like what is pure? What is holy, so to say? What is good, what is beautiful beyond. Just like, what's a quick fix just to get done?

Like sometimes we get that itch and we're just like, all right, I'm doing, you know, or we get analysis paralysis or or something, you know, like, so how do how do we have that movement from like, recognizing that driving desire into a manifestation of it, but also like having that purity. So the journey is not like wasting time because I'm kind of in a quarter life crisis where it's just like, all right, like life's different.

You know, you're I, I'm a millennial, you know, like, went to college, did all the right things, then crash. And it's like, none of the things that you do to line up. And life is just way different than what anyone predicted, which I feel like everybody has that somewhat experience. But but anyways, like, yeah, just trying to line up to like, okay, what is going to be worthwhile, like worth the investment, worth the time.

And anyways how do we connect those. Yeah, yeah. Great. Who hasn't felt the pain if the questions you're asking you know, which is like what do I give myself to and why am I choosing what I'm choosing? And there is something true to we have different dreams in different stages of life. You know, there are these things that I, you know, really like, as like my wife asked me to other day, she's like, what did you daydream about?

You know, as a, as a teenager. And I was like, I, I wanted to be the fan of the rock band, like 1,000% like that. If you asked me, like, what I'm daydreaming about, it was like getting on stage and having the joy of, like, just playing great music and, and so, like, that's not my day dream now.

Me too, so. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's still possible. It's my. Music's coming back like let's go. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. At this age roll me out in the wheelchair. But I do think like what was, what was under that dream. And I still think that's very true present in my life, which is I, I do believe that, you know, somewhere between nature and nurture that I've always sort of had a gift of communication, that I've always had a desire to connect authentically with others.

I've had a desire to give something to other people that become something they're able to take into their life, that blesses them in some way. So there's these things that existed within music that still exists very much in my life, but in a very sort of different package. And so, so I do think there's actually can be some risk for some folks where they're so married to one particular dream, one expression.

Yeah, yeah. And like, we all love the like we all love the, you know, movies that are about the person that just was so, you know, singularly minded and they made it all work. But like, you know, Steve Jobs was kind of a nightmare. You know, Steve Jobs was like he was so singularly focused that, very difficult to work with.

They had a lot of high dysfunction in his relationships. So yeah, like, dude, I love my iPhone. Wasn't worth it at the level that Steve Jobs like probably not. So, so I do think that there's something to be said again, going back to this idea of what's under it. And, you know, I interviewed a guy, a strange, mature I was at Disneyland a couple of weeks ago, and I was interviewing a couple of former Imagineers.

It was awesome. I got to ride Pirates of the Caribbean, interviewing them in real time. They were both on both sides of me. And so it was. It was crazy. That's awesome. But, like, one of the guys, you know, you know, he was talking to me. He's like. He's like, okay. So he's like, my mom is Asian.

And so he's like, there's no way that she was ever going to go get a career as an artist. Like, he's like, that's not a respectable career in the world that she comes from. But he said, like, their home was always filled with her making art, like, so, you know, he grew up in a home in which he and his brothers, like, everywhere they looked, they would see these touches by their mom, but their their mom was a nurse, like she was going to the office, you know, going to the hospital and working that job because that was necessary.

But she still wanted to give that gift to others. Well, now, like literally like her boys have grown up to, like, they design amusement parks, like they're they're in the process of designing Maitland, you know, for me in Nashville, like, and so much of that comes out of their mom going, I have to do what I got to do to take care of my kids.

But I still have to give expression to this in the her boy's going, look at what you could do if you take hard work like our mom did in creativity, like our mom did. And we applied in these interests. So, so sometimes, too, there's something to be said for like maybe the dream out is bigger than our own lifetime.

Like, maybe it's not even for us, but we're bringing something that, like our kids or our grandkids, actually get to be the ones to kind of cash in on. So I don't know if there's like a one size fits all except to say, like, I think we do have to sometimes grieve the loss of dreams. And, and in particular, you know, Joel, I know that, you know, you and I are closer in age.

There is something especially, I think, that really happens in that bridge of your 40s and early 50s where, like, you really realize, like the dream ain't happening, like there are different dreams that you had, like one day I'm going to get to do this for my career. One day my marriage might be like this. My kids are going to be like this. I'm going to get to do.

And you get to an age where you go like, I don't think I'm ever going to get those things, and you have to grieve those losses, because in the grief you actually find joy on the other side, and new dreams can suddenly emerge that you would never have thought of. Very good until you let go of the first dreams.

You have to let go of the original ones to take hold of the new ones. Yes. And those folks that just don't know how to do that, you see them get to, you know, I worked in the music industry for a long time, and I literally I left the industry. I was a booking agent, so I booked tours for a variety of different artists, and I left the industry because a variety of my artists would get to those middle years of life and refuse to let the dream go.

And they were burning their marriages to the ground. Their kids were in rehab. You know, nobody in their family even wanted to speak to them because they wouldn't let it go. When all signs point to do, go home and be with your wife and your kids and find a new a new dream together. So I do think that there's just, you know, there's not a one size fits all, but I do think there's something in that vicinity of like, what's under the dream.

And then they're moments in which you have to do the grief work so that something new can emerge. That's a really good point right there, something that I just want to pause on for a moment because that's that's rich and that's necessary for us to to think about in our own journey if we're going to deepen those desires.

Because the alternative is that the that even while those guys are pursuing all of that that you were describing, is that my bet? And I would put all of my money down on this bet, is that they are not actually getting to taste of their own desires. They don't get even if they achieve something. It feels very thin.

It doesn't have the depth, it doesn't have the richness, it doesn't have that sense of restful in it. And I know people who are listening to this, I, I know you know that feeling because there's the, the deeper rich desires that come through the death as you're describing the death of that dream so that something deeper can emerge.

And I would suggest something deeper that isn't outside of yourself. It's very true to your to your design. This is one of the things that I'm passionate about is your design is a God given design, but you don't fully know it. It's sort of like, again, that internal sense of I feel it, but not the fullness of it, because it's ever growing, ever transcendent and deeply connected to God.

So like, yeah, I think that's so good to think about that. Like what is dying in you if you're in that place right now? Like, I feel like all of my dreams have died, or are dying. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's what's happening. But it's only. So that's something better emerges. Something deeper, richer, more meaningful emerges. Let me point out, in my own life.

So Enneagram four. Okay, so and I haven't said this yet. So let me say this. One of the prevailing theories in the world of the Indian gram, and you can tell me if you take a slightly different sort of posture on this, but I've always said it this way, is that we have these nine desires. One of them comes to the forefront and it is so powerful, so just almost like an archaic just, you know, deeper than consciousness, part of who we are.

Yes. That literally our personality organizes itself around that desire. So there's one desire emerges. It is so powerful that literally, it shapes our thoughts and our feelings and our actions and our personality all sort of revolve around it. So saying that in your hand for authenticity is our jam. Like we are about being authentic people. And you know, we want to to be seen and loved and accepted and celebrated for who we are as we are with all of our eccentricities or or not our eccentricities.

You know, like our secret fear that we like going to eat at Chili's and that that's not, you know, very in a grand for of us, you know, whatever it is. And so, but I say that to say is like that, that desire for authenticity in my life at times has become so exaggerated that I've done significant harm within my marriage because there are moments in which something is I feel it.

I feel like I need to share it. You know, I feel melancholic or I feel disturbed or I feel upset, or I feel the longing that just won't stop. And I decide I'm going to say it all out loud. I'm going to give verbiage to it, because that's just me. I'm just being real. I'm just being authentic.

And what happens over time is, understandably, that wears down on a spouse that feels like no matter how I show up, you long for more. You know, no matter how much I'm, you know, really wanting to see you and love you. It's like the emotional waters never have a chance to be steady enough for us just to actually enjoy being married, because there's always something, you know, it's that spark.

It's that integrated force. I need the intensity. I need the spark. And so we're throwing gasoline on stuff just for the flames. And, and so, you know, around this conversation, conversation about desire, I had to come to a point where I went, what if there's more than just authenticity? And what and what if the things I keep saying are authentic are.

But that's also because I actually have three competing desires, and maybe I'm just focusing on the one that's the most sort of immediate, you know, I can do it. I can feel it quick. And a lot of times it's negative feelings. And so I had to sort of ask, like, do I want more than just authenticity and more than just emotional, you know, expression?

And the truth was, yeah, like, I would like to enjoy being with my favorite person, my wife. Yeah, I would like to enjoy her feeling at peace and not feeling anxious around me because I'm just sort of emotional, you know, unpredictable factor all the time. So, so that all of a sudden became like, you know, oh wait, what's the growth arrow for, for the, for.

Oh, it's the one. Well, what's the one about? No matter how I feel, I'm going to walk steadily by these principles and move towards something that's good and true. And that suddenly becomes, okay, I can bring down. Now, there are still times I'm going to swing for the fences with my emotions, but I need to keep I need to choose those moments carefully and not just for, you know, melodramatic effect or whatever.

And so, so I do think there are these, these times in which even that core desire that drives our type, we have to at some point go like, but what if I did get it and I had to go like, I don't think it'd be enough. I think there are too many other things that I also want and need.

And that means I need to put this in check, not diminish. Don't don't don't confuse it. But it's putting it back in its right place. Well yes. And I so there's a lot of what you're saying. Well, virtually everything you said I'm tracking 100. Like, I can see that in my own type as a seven. There's also like but that desire, when it's turned in on itself and it becomes a trying to solve that sense of lack, that inner sense is something is missing.

Something's broken. Something's not right. Something's incomplete. You know, on and on and on, whatever all those nine types have at their core, it's like it never actually there's no getting there. There's no getting to that place of authenticity. There's no getting to the place of happy ever. It's just the pursuit of it. Right? Yeah. Because that's like, when is happy enough?

When is authentic enough? You know. Never it's never. I mean, sure, we experience lots of fun, lots of play, lots of laughter, but is there a place of depth of joy? No, that doesn't come until I confront the very thing that I'm terrified by. Right? And then when you turn in on that and you look at that, then you look through it, right?

It's the descent, Dante's Inferno, it's the descent down. That then leads up right? Purgatory. Then you you end up actually climbing. That's the concept behind that is like you, you have to confront these things, but when you confront them, then you turn upward. And then the desire is. This is why desire turned in on itself never works, but desire that is totally outward, like some types don't know if you relate more with this, Sarina, but some like turned outward to like trying to please trying to serve other.

That also doesn't work. It seems to me that it's like this ecology that's like you have to have the internal desire. Yes, the awareness of that. But it has to be serving something that's transcending you but also fulfilling you. It's like it's a both. And is that track for you, Jesse, as I'm saying that, yeah. I wrote a book a few years back on the gram called How We Relate.

And one of my big things that I pushed and proposed, you know, since the dawn of humanity, we've asked, what's the purpose of life? And, and I've contended and stand by and I still believe this, that the purpose of life is relationships. And there is something about this idea of I've a relationship with other people, I have a relationship with God, I have a relationship with myself.

And there's something about that. Those three movements have to be constantly in a fluid relationship, because if it's if it's just other people and just God, I have no self-awareness. If it's just me and just God, I'm cutting myself off from others. If it's just me and just other people, like, who's to say that I have any sense of moral compass to decide what's right?

What's wrong? What does it even mean to have conviction? You know, so there's all these different sorts of dynamics that come into play when we try to cut that out. And Joe, to your point, it is like when my desires become exaggerated. They're not they're not life giving. They're becoming life taking. It's it's because that three way dynamic has started to break down somewhere.

Yeah. Yep. Totally agree. , what is it for you as a you know, you mentioned your type. Or I don't think you mentioned your type, but. I don't know if I have one in this episode, but it's a three. Okay. Wait, there's something you were saying, Jesse, that I'm like, hold up. So. Okay. You said purpose is like relationship, right?

Okay. So that kind of reminds me. And then how you kind of, like, balanced it with the three, like, God, self, others. I mean, kind of at the core of, of like faith of faith is like a God who is three and one, right. This for me, which really resonates with my understanding and connection with with sensing God, is like this part, the fact that God is himself other referencing that it is not just one desire, one being that it is one of the other and the same.

And there's always this reflecting in this, this motion and movement and relation. Right? But I almost wonder if, if purpose, if our purpose is relationship, it's like I almost think of it more of like it's like the the water we swim in, like relationship is such a necessity for functionality and our humanness. And just being in this world and in how we were created and breathed into existence, it was to be connected.

It was to, to to be like we are made in the image of a God who is not just one, right? And I and so I'm just in, in wanting, in trying to pull in desire and purpose into that like framework. It's like how much of our like core desire or core needs with it being relational and, and being able to submit and admit that, like I need others.

Like first of all, that's a mountain to climb. It's just be like, all right, especially American society, independence, all of that. It's like, okay, I need others and I want others, and that's good and valid. But then beyond that, it's like, okay, how do I get that need met then? And in finding that need or in trying to figure out how to get that need, that how do we how do we do it in a way that is like, like real and connecting and not just selfish, like the whole idea?

Going back to your example of like your former dream of being like a rock star or even like your the, the, the artist that you witness kind of go into burnout because they couldn't let go of this one expression. And it's like what was behind the desire to be famous, so to say, or to like be in front of people and inspire them with music.

Was it because of a love of music? And you just have to, like, express that way? Was it because of a love for for influence and being able to be like to have impact on other people's lives? And so like if it boils down to, to those things to impact, to, to gifting, to, to those like I almost wonder like even within those are we is it still always in correlation to because we're trying to find each other?

Are we trying to always just find each other? I'm sorry if there's not much of a question in there, but it's it's like that's just really profound what you shared about like purpose being relationship. But but you know, for me it's like, yeah, it is like this constant atmosphere that's just there. Yeah. There's like a trick, right?

For all nine at the types where it's like what we really want and then like what we can fuze it with and those things to us like I guess what office. But there's an episode of The Office where Creed is put in charge of the office, and they give him like, hey, we need you to find the difference between the first and the second photo.

And the lie is to keep Creed busy, and there's same photo and and I feel like like that's how it works for a lot of us when it comes to, like, the good and genuine desire and the thing that we're settling for, it's like there are two photos and we we literally can't tell the difference between them.

So a bit of the work does become, you know, how can I learn to tell that apart, you know, so like, how would you all define, you know, how would you define the core desire for a type three? Like if you were to say in the, in the, in the value, value and worth. Yes. Yeah. How hard is it to differentiate value and worth from success?

Like, do those feel very strong. Like do they feel very similar. So a little bit for me, I don't know if it's because of my instinctual stacking. For me I would say instead of success I would say connection almost over like validation from others. Right. So I so success becomes less like goal orientated on like what I defined, but more about like perception of others, like validation from others.

Right. So they are they are meshed buddy. They are a mess. Like so bad. Because again, I want connection. I want to be seen as worth love, worthwhile, intrinsically valuable. So a lot of my growth journey has been like, can I accept that I am intrinsically valuable despite others? Yeah, and that is very like I even get a little emotional because that's like a very scary place to be.

And like, am I valuable despite others because of of I was created, I was thought of, I am, I am being, I am here and destined by something greater than myself. Creation of a creator. And is that is that enough value beyond just the approval or the acceptance of others or. Yeah, all of that. So that's more of like what I have to woo.

I have to really turn down that dial because I'm quick to just move into action. I'm quick to just get those fixes of like, you like me here. What can I do to help? Let me let me fill in the gap. You know what? It's just like, wait, how do I show up? Right? And then and. Then and then it becomes very disturbing, probably for you in the moments in which you're like, I don't think they perceive me the way I really want them to perceive me, you know?

And and so then it becomes like, are there tweaks that I can make right now to get back into their good graces, you know, or, you know, for them to regard me in a, in a particular way. And so, yeah, it becomes really confusing between like, I want to be valuable and I want to matter. Yeah. Yes. Amen. And then, getting confused and going why only and valuable and matter if they perceive me as valuable and that I matter to them.

And all of a sudden, and now of a sudden, you're like, I'm. You're held hostage, you know, by these people, frankly, probably aren't thinking that much about you, you know, and so. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think that I think that for all of us, like, that's some of that discerning work we have to do, it is a great thing that you're like, when I think of my desires, I want to I want to be valuable and I want to give meaningful contributions.

And you have those gifts to bring into the world, but it can't come at the expense of being held hostage to other people's perceptions, because those are fickle. If if, you know, like modern age media, like we're a hot mess. But if we've learned nothing else, it's think about how fast and easy it is to fall from the pedestal.

You know, like you can be like the everybody loves you. And then all of a sudden, you know, I remember like, you know, and maybe people wouldn't agree with this, but like, I remember they're like this, this little window where, like, Chris Pratt, you know, was like, everybody loved Chris Pratt, like. And he was like, so funny on Parks and Rec.

And he was the new guy in Guardians, and I don't recall what happened. But then all of a sudden, like a bunch of people, my circle was like, I don't like Chris Pratt. And I'm like, you know, the guy was like, here. And then suddenly he was here. And that sucks. You know? Just. Yeah, but that's also just how the world operates.

And so, so I think that it's helpful for us to when we think about our desire to go, like, what's the real deal that really, really like, it's eternal. And then what's the part that I'm settling for synthetically? It's a synthetic version of the real thing I want. That's a that's a great way to phrase that. Like what's eternal and what's synthetic I love that, yeah.

This is opening up can of worms. And I realize that as we're sitting here, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, there's so many questions that, folks are going to have. Like, how do I have never even heard of the anti gram? What's the anti gram. And like how do you do this. And you know, finding my type and figuring out that shortcut.

But that is part of unfortunately part of the, the work that we say to people we're happy to be resources. Jesse, your resource men moment. Love to hear how people can connect to you. But, but yeah, there's there's so much richness to what was shared today. Thank you, , for sharing, you know, vulnerably about your, you know, your where you are and, and your journey there.

And then moving to that, you know, maybe maybe us wrapping up here with describe maybe a moment where you do feel that sense of value separated from your image, separated from how people see you, moments where maybe it's not even a sense of value, that maybe I don't even feel the lack of it. Sometimes it's just I don't feel the hunger.

I don't feel the lack, I don't feel the need. But something like that for you that, that you can recall. You know, a really powerful thing that is that I just love. I don't know if I'd call it a tool. I don't know what to call it. Principle. I don't know what to call it a posture. But when gratitude is is present in my heart, it is that overwhelming sense of like, just everything's like seeing things as a gift and instead of, like, deserving or instead of earning when I can just shatter those frameworks and just be present to gratitude, like genuine, like with my,

my kids that just unconditionally love me because I'm their mom. I get to be their mom. I don't have to earn their love. I want to do well by them, of course, and take care of them. But they just want me because I'm theirs and and I feel the same towards them, you know? But it's like this gratitude rises up.

And so it's like when there's moments of gratitude in life, even, it can even come through a song. It can even come through a movie or just a moment driving where it's just like, man, I get to live in this place, or oh, I get to like, oh, I know that emotion, and I'm grateful that I have this memory connected to it.

It's like when gratitude rises up and bubbles up, that feels super helpful and just, like canceling all of the noise and just making it, making it easy, you know, and and pure. And then it feels more connected, right? Connected to self, connected to others and connected to God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then but it doesn't reduce desire.

It doesn't get rid of desire. Maybe it shapes it out differently that now it's like, oh I get to do this. You know, I get to create value, create worth in the world. I get to bring hope to people. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, Jesse, anything you wish you had said because we went all over the place. He probably had some thoughts on your mind of things you wanted to share.

Love to give you the last word. You know, I would tell people to honor. Honor your desires. There can be a great temptation to dismiss your desire and to say they're not a big deal. They don't matter. They're not important. And what I would say is this even the most outlandish desire, it's trying to tell you something.

And I think that I think that our paying attention to our desires, you know, there's there's so much really wonderful therapy work that's starting to emerge and research around this idea that all of these desires or, you know, and again, I'm going to use another word that's going to sound sexual, but I mean it a broader way, or these fantasies that come up inside of us, they are clues about the parts of our story that still long for our attention.

And, and the parts that still need us to show up and to care for them. And, there is no clear cut, you know, cookie cutter path through the forest. It's just it's it's hard work. But honor your desires. Don't shame your desires. You know, one of the worst things we can do is a desire comes up and we immediately judge it.

Do what you can to not judge it, but instead to show up with a posture of curiosity. What is it about this like? What is it that that you want beyond just the idea that you're a broken person, beyond just the idea that maybe, you know, you're morally flawed, leave that at the door for a moment and just welcome it.

What is your desire trying to talk to you about and welcome it? Be curious about it. Befriended. Because, I would say that that that is God still trying to do something in your heart and in your life, and, and so welcome it with curiosity. Yeah. That's a fantastic ending to our time together. Jesse, thank you so very much for the richness.

Yeah. My pleasure. Of this. I feel I feel better after having this conversation with you and . Where can people find you? Okay, if you want any Graham related stuff, you can pick up my book, How We Relate. Wherever you get your books. And you can also check out the any casts, which we don't have any new episodes, but we have 100 and something episodes Enneagram related.

You can go to relate better. Com where we have a variety of different interior and related stuff. So that's all the Graham stuff. If you want to keep up with the current project I'm working on, it's called wonderful and it is a storytelling documentary show where we go around and we chase a crazy different subjects. So, for example, I'm going out to California next week to continue doing research around how we're utilizing AI to translate whale communication and what we're.

Learning about whales. Yeah. In Wales. And so, so the show's super fun. We go and we go and just really wild places. So if you're if you just find yourself really wanting, you know, to invite more curiosity into your life, you know, our, our mission is make curiosity cool again. And so yeah. So go check out the show one.

Yeah. It's an incredible great esthetic. Great like content. It's please check it out. You'll love it. All right well thanks again and yeah really appreciate this time together. Yeah. Good to be with you. Yes. Thank you. Merging Wisdom