Power And Accountability: Reflections On The Mica Miller Story - Ep. 6

Merging Wisdom Alight, welcome to Merging Wisdom. It's so fun to be with the two of you. I always look forward to this. And it's funny because pre the before the podcast, I don't say any of this stuff because I'm kind of like, I don't want to get into anything until you, the three of us are actually having this conversation.

But, but this is really cool. I'm joined us today, as always with Dan and Sarina and super excited... I have the opposite problem, Joel. I say all these amazing, interesting and insightful things off the recording so that by the time we record these. That's why I don't say too many, insightful things. So maybe I should start flipping that and just save my great observations for the podcast.

Yeah. One thing I do want to say, and then I'll hand it back over to you, Joel, we really do appreciate people that have tuned in so far and watched and subscribe to our channels and followed and liked, in this early stage of our podcasting, that is really crucial and really important. Again, we don't like this pitch.

We don't like saying this, but it is just so, like I said, important for you guys to help us out. If you can subscribe, if you can share these episodes, if you can tell people about it. We would really, really appreciate it. And then we'll know that the content we're making is going to go somewhere, and it's going to get into people's eyes and ears, and we can keep doing this.

So thank you guys so much for doing that. Yeah. Well, we're talking about this. Netflix series, this story. With Mica Miller and, boy, this one has just taken off with a lot of, you know, a lot of interest, a lot of people following. And, and then there's been so many YouTubers that have gone out there and they're saying, here's what the Netflix series left out, you know, and it's the hook.

And if you listen to it, generally there's not much there. So I'd love to hear, you know, Sarina, you're the one who you watched it before I did. I just sort of was like following at a distance. And then I don't know what it was that made me. Maybe it was a news report or something. That something hooked, you know, some stories.

I don't know why. Some stories hook us and others don't. This one did. And then certainly you watched it before me, and then you said you need to watch this. So I did, and I was disturbed. I was, like, really troubled by the whole story. I laugh because it's how I handle discomfort, because like, that just was awful.

In so many ways. And really sad. Just so sad, isn't it? Felt like there was nothing redemptive about the entire story. And so it left me kind of in a dark place after watching it. And I want to get your your thoughts on it, but maybe setting it up. So if anybody's listening to this, like, years later, it's like, what is that story?

Who was this? So and and I'll jump in right here to Joel. Sarina knows a lot more about it than I do, and you know more than I do. I've followed it a bit, but I'm going to let you guys take the lead on it. But we're also not just going to only sit on that story, but we're going to obviously be pulling the threads of wisdom because like, it is a pretty heavy, important, like traumatic story, but like, what can we learn from it?

Obviously that's what we try to do here. A lot of it might be like a lot of things you shouldn't do as opposed to, you know, gleaning wisdom from, from what happened. But there's a, a wisdom in learning from other people's mistakes and that. So we're going to broaden the conversation too. But we're using that story in that documentary as a jumping off point.

So yeah, I care a lot about that. I care about the there's a few things here that, to me has been part of the consistent problem within the church world. And I want to address that because I think if we don't change this, we're going to complete we're going to continue having these these, you know, terrible stories.

I mean, the things bad things happen, but then it just becomes worse because of the way it's handled. And I think this is one of the cases in point. Yeah. And hopefully we can learn from it. And so again, we're using this as a jumping off point. That documentary that a tragic story. But there's obviously investigations going on and there's a legal proceedings and people are innocent until proven guilty in this country.

So we're not here to comment on ongoing trials or make speculations or make certain accusations towards people. But again, we're just using that as a way to start this conversation that a lot of people are talking about. That's important for us, as you know, a society and especially members of churches to where this kind of took place to talk about. So.

Yeah, I think I was most affected by like the response that it caused in like just the social media world and, and how many people I was struck by, how many people resonated with part of the story. And that's what was so profound for me. It was like, okay, I should watch this, and it's going to be uncomfortable.

And and it does like it just ends with no, no, period. It leaves you hanging in and and there's no solution given or there's no, like, conclusions or anything. But the story itself was worthwhile telling because I think so many can relate to a part of it, and to some degree, I mean, is a really extreme and tragic situation.

But I was like, I want to talk about what this this story helps give light to things that are often hidden or swept under the rug in, like the church institution, which we are all actively and have been a part of and like, is a big part of our own personal stories. And we care about we're not here to like, make judgments or like the church sucks and we like we need it to like, change before we can engage.

And it's like, no, no. It's like. That's a good point, that we're having this conversation from the inside and not from the outside in. That's right. That's like a distinction now. Yeah, it's it's filled with broken people and it is complex. And it is not excusing, abusive, wrong, clearly wrong behavior. But there is this element of like man, when there's moments where we're getting called higher, where we're getting called to like, okay, let's, let's take a, a piece of humble pie here and examine and reflect.

And that's what I feel like this docu series has been so profound. Doing is like so many people have been responding in like this reflective way of like, oh my gosh, I can relate to Mica so much, and especially a lot of women. Like, if there's any of you ladies in ministry or just have church experience and have.

Oh, there's there's probably a lot that can come up. I know for me personally, even though I don't, there's obviously specific elements that were more extreme and stuff. There's just this it brought up a lot. So I really I'm excited about this conversation because I love looking at what's there. I want to know what's there, and I want to know how to do it better so that we don't make keep making similar mistakes and and owning our part so that we're empowered to make a difference.

Like, it's not about blaming, it's not about like, oh, it's the institution. Oh it's the structure. Oh it's the this, these types of people that, that parade and, and victimize people like know how do I as somebody who wants to participate in this beautiful thing of, of of faith and Christianity or church like how do I engage in it in a healthy, like conscious way and not just a passive spectator way?

So that's what I really hope this conversation kind of leads into. That's what was brought up for me, is like this bigger conversation beyond just analyzing the documentary. But needless to say, Joel, give us a little recap. So there's some context to what was all the things that are boiling inside of me to come out. Well, I appreciate you jumping in though, and starting to talk about your own.

Like, I think bias is important to kind of hang into the conversation. Look, I'm I have biases. I have strong feelings. You have them, Dan. You have them to. We don't we don't. You know, we didn't prepare this. You know, we don't do this kind of thing. We just sort of like, hey, we're going to talk about this.

So I want to know a little bit about, you know, what drives sort of your responses as best as you know them. But I think it's important to like, hey, you know, we're affected by the story. There's stuff, there's our own personal experiences within the church world. And like I said, we're not here to destroy anything. I think there's enough of that going on.

I think it's trying to figure out the wisdom of what is. I love what you said. Like reflecting on, like, what a what's in me. What a how. My a part of whatever problem there is in society, you know, it's like GK Chesterton who responded to a newspaper question, big question headline or like, what in the world is wrong with the what is wrong with the world?

And he responded in written form with just simply saying, me, you know, or I am, you know. And it was like the perfect response of like, stop looking outside at the problems, only outside of ourselves. We're going to do that today. But it's also like how my learning about me, so I live differently. I think that's the that's one of the big wisdom things that practices that we're trying to engage in.

Yeah, definitely. Well, Joel, do you want to recap, just like the basic touchpoints, is that valuable to people? And again, this is just what we know. We weren't a part of this situation obviously. So this is kind of from the documentary or from resources online or so we're not claiming to know anything as a certain fact, just caveats aside.

But yeah, if you want to give people a quick rundown. Yeah. So this and it'll do my best. I'm terrible at doing stuff in a linear form, but here we go. So Mica Miller. She was born, I think, as Mica Francis. So this is her married name, Mica Miller. 30 year old woman from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. And, Yeah, attending a church.

I think she was in her teens. And when she began attending solid Rock church and was part of their youth group ministry, and then joined, got into the worship. Part of the ministries that lead leading the singing and, the band, and that's when she met the pastor, John Paul or JP when she was young. I think she was 15 when she first. Sounds about right.

I started in that's like an event type church, non-denominational or something. Yeah, exactly. Nondenominational. I don't think it's associated or affiliated with with others. I could be wrong. I just that's what I, I took away from the Netflix series. But their relationship began when she was about 20, I believe. Although people say that it was even earlier than that.

But there's a sort of like, you know, a 20. He's 35. So this is a 15 year gap and he's the pastor. So there's like. And he's married and she's. Married and she's married. Yeah. Those are two important details. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Like that's what made I have questions. So I started having questions about all that.

I'm like, wait, so the romantic relationship began at that point, and then they had an affair, right? And then she decides to divorce her husband at the time, and he decides to divorce his wife, and both of them get married. To me, that was like a huge red flag. Like, wait, what? It's one mistake compounded then by two other major to my mind, mistakes of like, I'm choosing to leave my partner now.

I don't know if maybe the partners were both like, we're out. Like that part, I was told. Again, us hearsay. But I was told that his first wife was like, I'm out. So that was what one person said. It seemed in the series. I recall her being like. Oh, that. Yeah. That's done. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So, she wanted out but I don't know that he did, you know, Mica's because he's the pastor. So I want you to keep going with your kind of synopsis. We'll get into the, the the power dynamics and the role and all that that comes with being a pastor. So he's the pastor of the church, you know? Yeah, but a lot of people believed was a significant factor here of what not only led to the affair, but led to ultimately the, her divorcing her current husband to marry him.

And then the story goes on that the relationship between Mica and JP was one of allegedly one of control, one of manipulation, one of constant, you know, power, a significant power dynamic that was used to control virtually her every move. That's what alleged in at least in the docuseries. So this ultimately led to her finally separating, wanting to leave, wanting to get out of the marriage.

And from what? Because he started another affair as well. Like while he was married? While he was another. I didn't know that. And do we know that? Again, I want to make sure. So that's that. Was well, because he's I think he's currently married or at least the series ended with them getting married. Yeah. But it was found out that they were okay.

It was an affair. Yeah they were they. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. And this is, this was this is going to a dark place. I want to give it a little bit of a warning. Trigger warning for people. It's going to, you know, some bad, bad stuff happens here. Yeah. This is the horrible thing of, like, after she decides to leave, that's I think when the control the harassment just took off and eventually she.

Apparently this is again this is the what we know what's alleged is that she took her own life. And that was the recorded 911 call that was made where, she seems to be at the end of her rope. She could not deal with it because maybe, who knows, maybe she couldn't. She didn't feel she could escape. Was there was no way of getting away from him.

But it ends up in her taking her life and he goes on, has a, in fact, even has an entire service. Right after she she took her her life. I think the day after it was so close, it had to be like a day or a couple of days, tops. And where he's the pastor still, and he was preaching and, you know, at church.

Yeah. And. You know, he announces it at the end of. At the end of the service. Yeah. And it's like seeming to not be affected by it during the service, but then suddenly affected deeply by it at the very end. Now I get that whole like, stage performance thing you've got the show must go on, but there's a lot there that's.

Being show must go on in church show. Okay, okay. Well come on, you've been part of. That's like you know what that's. Like show. The show must go on. Absolutely. I I'm I'm intentional about that. That is very much what drives the system. I've been part of a system where I wasn't the lead pastor, and there were things going on behind the scenes that were really, really, really difficult.

And the lead pastor at the time was like, you know, you got to compartmentalize, got to switch it off. Let's go. This, this is and it was all it was felt to me, very performance driven. And and so there is a component of that. And I'm not saying we shouldn't continue on because you still sometimes do, but the behavior did seem odd.

Yeah. It seemed odd. Yeah. Very odd. Yeah. From an outside observer. But a lot of the stuff like that was happening towards the end and their separation, and that's kind of part of that, trial or legal investigations ongoing right now. I think it's going to go to trial next month or somewhere along that timeframe, October of 2026.

So we'll know more hopefully then and in the future. But right now these are the the allegations and stuff. Yeah, we might find out stuff that totally undermines other things that we, you know, that the series put out there. And if that's the case then yeah, we'll talk about that. But for now, we're basing a lot of what we're going to be reflecting on in terms of wisdom on what we currently have.

As this is the, you know, the facts as we know it and the story as we know it. So and unfortunately, this is a worthwhile conversation to have. Like, unfortunately, this isn't like this one really insane Netflix doc. It's like, man, can you believe this happened? Like, yeah, that doesn't happen ever anymore. This this would never happen ever before or after.

It's like, oh, like the fact that we have a lot to talk about with it and draw parallels with is is sad. And it seems to be a common problem in the church world. I don't know if that's true or not. I mean, maybe it's not. Maybe it happens just as much in secular businesses or other aspects of life, but it just seems to happen a lot in the church.

And is there a reason for that? Are there power dynamics and structures and culture and history that lends itself to that happening in the church? I think that's where some of this conversation might go, is to why does it feel or why does it happen a lot in the church world? And we're going to try to pull on some of those.

I want to hear from Sarina on that one, because, yeah. I want to hear Dan's answer. I was like, answering your question. Like. Okay, let me and then I'll toss. It over. You answer first. Yeah. And I don't know, I'm just I'm processing. We're all processing this together in real time. But what's different about a church structure than working at Best Buy or Target or as a hedge fund manager?

Like, it seems like there are some actual important differences. You're dealing with a holy tradition, a text, and a belief system that says, God said this. We should do this. We have to do this, or else, you know, bad things will happen to your soul and your life. And this is the way to live. And there's people, you know, in the church structure that are ordained to lead us and guide us and tell us what God said.

That's a different structure than you should organize the microwaves, because Bill, at Best Buy, your manager said to do so. That's a little bit of a different power dynamic when you're saying, I'm the leader that God has kind of ordained in this structure with this canonized holy text. Now, as Christians, you know, we do believe in God, in holy traditions, in a sacred text, you know, in right living.

So, so yeah, like, I'm not I'm not be literally at that point. But I think that's why these dynamics can can happen a lot more in church. Now, I could this whole episode be making parallels between Joseph Smith and Mormon culture, too. And if that seems like a really weird out of the blue comment, well, you got to watch some previous episodes of Merging Wisdom.

You'll realize why, why, why? I would say that shameless plug here. Shameless plug. But that's where a lot of my pursuits are at. And again, with that, the the Mormon stuff and just early Mormon history, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, the same power dynamic was at play there. The leaders in their tradition ordained by God, the prophets of God.

And they introduced this, you know, sexual dynamic, power, dynamic, God speaking through me. So if God saying something that is different than other aspects of life, where it might just be more relational, interpersonal stuff going on, where and I think that's a lot of why this stuff can happen in a church. You know. Yeah, that's. You're tracking with like what I think to is a good differentiation is like, there is that spiritual mysterious like God element that's like on the power dynamic on the structure.

So as a member, as someone who's not a leader, someone who doesn't have the authority, but you're like following as a congregant or whatever, there's this element of wanting to like to, like, be obedient, to learn, to glean from, to heed what they're saying. And so you get this gathering of really vulnerable people, really vulnerable, like community.

And then those in power just have this extra authority that's beyond just like a proven skill or character or like they earned it because they, they, they showed it and climbed the ladder and over time they raised went to the state. There's like, there's this shortcut with spiritual gurus, it seems, where they can just like jump to the top because of a personal conviction, or they like jump to the top because of their charismatic and quote unquote gifted or quote unquote anointed like, or feel called and, and all of those things I'm not trying to say are, are are not true.

Like that's the that's the tricky thing. That's the like nuanced thing is like there are some where there is a calling and, and scripture like it's such a mysterious thing. The idea of like those that are, are called to like help guide the people of God, help, disciple, help, you know it, put in place practices that are like helping people out.

You know, just like, how do we do this spiritual life? Like it's it's complicated. So there are those that are like, genuinely called and genuinely like doing it well. But then there's also this dynamic I think it's taken advantage of because of that context by people who are just so ill equipped and, and just play the system, I don't know.

And, and how do we even want to call it the system? They play the people. And that's where I come in as like, because I'll own it. Like I'm not trying to make this a us versus them thing at all. Like, why? What in my psyche, it makes me so susceptible to a charismatic leader beyond just them being more entertaining.

It's the whole like psychology of like, well, they speak with more confidence. So you think that like they believe what they're saying. So yeah, if I question it like, am I just trying to be rebellious? And then especially as a woman, especially in like, like typical like spiritual environments and like the whole confusion with roles of women in the church, which is a thing.

Still, it's still a thing. It is. It's still a thing. There is at least this like ethos. Yeah, like in the air and. It's literally in the Bible. But yeah. And Ian also. Okay. Sure. Yes. Okay. If you. Think that comment was harsh, I'm, I'm being a little playful but also like trying to show the other side.

But yeah we're good. Yes. But it's like but the practice of it, it becomes very like okay, I got to I want to be if I want to be a good, true and beautiful like servant of God and just live this life. Well, I don't know, there's just this like idea of don't question the authority, don't be in resistance because that's like, seen as rebellious, you know, or anyways, we can put a pin in that and later that might be a little bit messy.

Sorry. It was a little bit fragmented there. I love it. This is so good. I'm glad you're saying all these things. It's, It's your story. It's your truth. Yeah. You know, and I think we gotta, you know, welcome that. I think you speak for a lot of people, that have been used and abused by the system. And I think that's, And by the way, not just a happy.

I'm glad you're mentioning, you know, women who have been affected in this way, but so have men. And, yeah, they have been used by the system, abused by the system. I my caution all the time is whenever we say here is the true victim, here's the true perpetrator is it just becomes too easy for us to scapegoat.

It's a human predisposition to scapegoat our problems onto the on to something, right. And to become the victim in the situation in this story, in Mica. Story in your story, in my story, there are real victims. There is no question about that, and there are real perpetrators. But when we start to make something bigger of it and turn it into a whole movement, a whole structure, that's that's when it just becomes too easy for us to avoid, like you said, your own susceptibilities. What a lot.

What caused you to be to be duped by that or to be pulled in or swayed? You know, I have to ask myself that same question because I've got a lot of ears where it's like, wow, I don't know why I didn't see that, that now I could see it, but I didn't see it back then. I think a lot of us, you know, have that same susceptibility to name a few good things, like how people that have a lot of confidence this happens in the church world.

It happens in the corporate world. It happens everywhere. Yeah. People with greater confidence tend to end up in positions of leadership. It just you know, these haven't been studies around the, the, the, the depth of your voice. So richer, deeper voices tend to get viewed as with more authority. And, you know, there's been some theories around it.

It's because when we were children, our parents voices were deeper, you know, that kind of thing. But there's that there's also that the average height of a CEO tends to be over six feet tall. That is, does not play out in the rest of society. But that is our thing. Why? Because our parents were taller than us.

So that's one of the theories. There are things there are factors like that that play into it until we are are aware of our predecessor, you know, we can't change things. And so we might put somebody in a position of power who shouldn't be there. You know what I mean? Because they actually not, talented. They're actually not a good leader.

I mean, if his story is in the Bible of this, like the very first king is Saul, and it's because he was head and shoulders taller than everybody else, right? So he's put into this position and he's a terrible leader. He's like so inadequate, you know. And then along comes David, who's a, you know, a ruddy smaller individual who ends up being a far better king, although he has his disasters.

But he's not perfect either. No. You know, no, he's getting disasters for sure. So just pointing out that that's part of I think that's a that's true. You know, but you added the element of spirituality. And yes, that adds a significant component of like, gosh, other outside of the corporate world, churches who claim to have, you know, access to God, you know, and that this sort of this ascending and descending kind of thing where it's like the higher up you are, the more access theoretically you have to God, the more that you're in tune with what is what God is actually saying or what the Bible is actually saying.

And that that's a power dynamic. Yeah. I wonder, because of our backgrounds are all kind of in more evangelical, non-denominational and even kind of charismatic or Pentecostal expressions. And even in the LDS tradition, again, where there was a lot of charismatic, kind of culture in the beginning stages, especially in these societies. I think that adds a whole nother level of trickiness when you have people saying, God said this and their they're prophesying these, they're declaring these things, you know, that that adds a whole nother kind of wrinkle.

Interestingly enough, this Catholic church is growing right now and so is the Orthodox. Yeah. And they're growing with a disproportionate number of former evangelicals or, and Protestants. And I'm I'm super grateful those denominations have never had any like systematic problems or scandals to speak of. Oh, okay. They're enough. Well done. That's true. But let me add, because we were talking about systematic issues here.

Let me do let me say one more thing on that. Because you were mentioning this and it's kind of come up a few times, there's a systematic flaw in the church culture, denominational culture, leadership, structure of bad actors can easily, infiltrate the system because it is kind of self attesting where, especially in revolutionary cultures or there's like a real low threshold to get in.

It isn't like becoming a CEO where you probably need like a master's degree and, you know, such and such experience in a real specific, hard imperial knowledge of something. You can just start a church like a guy, JP can start a church, and if that church fails, he can start a new one. Anybody can start a church and anybody can say, God said this or that.

Anybody can revelation, prophesy. And so bad actors can easily infiltrate the system. It's just part of it. I'm not saying that the whole systems like that. Not every pastors like that, not every leaders like that, in fact, most definitely are not like that. Most are not like that. So it's not like the whole system is bad, but it's a system that has this not fatal flaw, just that accessibility for bad actors to come in.

I'll say this, and then we can keep talking about what comes up for us. But I was thinking about my favorite comedian, McDonald, and I think my favorite SNL sketch, historically of his was called Clara Bible Challenge. And this kind of just shows the vulnerability, in that case, gullibility in a funny way. But the susceptibility of Christians to just let people in, in, in a systematic way that exposes that flaw in the system.

So he's playing this character who's obviously not like part of the church. He's he's there on the game show smoking. And what they do is they ask the Bible question like, you know, what city the you know, the walls fall down. The answer is Jericho. Now who who knew that? Who knew the answer? And people like, have to self attest, like whether they actually knew the answer ahead of time because it's a Christian thing and and he's clearly like he doesn't know what he's like. Oh yeah, I knew that, I knew that.

So he's like the champion for like 17 weeks in a row. He's winning all the money because he just realizes I can manipulate the system. It's a self attesting, very innocent, very gullible system. That's funny. It is. So guys gotta go check out. I'm gonna watch it. Yeah, you gotta watch it. But but it shows something like, oh, we can we can pray on these vulnerable people.

And this guy from the house, this sleazy guy can come in from the outside, perfectly played by Norm MacDonald, and go, I'm gonna I'm going to get all the money. I'm going to get all the power. And I can take advantage here. And that's just a funny example of a tragic thing that happens continually in a lot of church circles.

That's where I think, we can we can definitely talk about that. I think there's some wisdom to draw from this. One of the things that's troubled me for a long time has been this evaluating people, putting them in leadership positions based upon charisma. That's it. It's just like, well, they're gifted, you know? So there's like this thing of like, I think they're called by God. Why?

Yeah. Who knows? It's a feeling. Right? And I'm not disparaging feeling. I think you have to tune in to your internal gut sense and feeling. That's just as important as analysis. I think both need to be, you know, together in the process. But sometimes you'll be like, what on paper looks great, but your gut is like, something's off, right?

Sometimes you're just trusting your gut and it's like, well, let's take a look at some history here. So both are important. But if the only, only thing we're looking for and I think that's been the this this has been the problem. And again, I'm glad you said it's mostly what we're talking about is from our perspective because we're part of that same world.

I mean, I probably wouldn't have gone to JP's church, but, you know, I'm part of that same world with like, there being like, you know, charismatic, gifted people who can rise in leadership very quickly, very easily. And they're not evaluated based upon things like, what are the what are the fruit of the spirit? You know, do they demonstrate that?

Have they shown that for good period of time, you know, how are their relationships? Let's let's push that through the spirit thing into more concrete, samples. How how is their family? What's what's happening there? How are they relationships outside the family? Do they have good, long term, healthy, relationships? And I don't know that these questions and, and more are being ever asked.

It's it's far more about like, did you, you know, in some circles it's like, do you have a degree? Some evangelical churches demand that you have to have a minimum of a master's seminary degree. And it's like, do you have that? Do you have and what are your skills? And, you know, the references. Do they say you did a great job, you know, running in your position, executing your position, your tasks?

Did you do a good job? Are there any scandals that we know of? Certainly the last that like are there any scandals? But the thing is that if you don't it if you don't have a metric or a way to test and evaluate, is there fruitfulness in their lives meaning love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, all these things?

A lot of these people, because they don't do anything that is very overt. Now, in the case of JP, it's become that. But prior to that, how many years was like, you know, outside of the affair? The affair was definitely a significant thing. But outside of that, it was more subtle stuff, stuff that you can't quite go.

That is breaking a rule. You know, that is an infraction for sure. It's manipulation, it's control. It's all of these other things. So for me, that's a big one that I don't see being important in the church world. Well, we're dealing with a lot of that over the past year. And like certain streams of, like, the Protestant church, like, there was a guy, Sean Bowles, to go back to my New York Donald analogy, it was kind of gaming the system.

Like there's a, there's a thing in some circles of Christianity called like prophecy or word of knowledge. And he he kind of figured out, like he could just look things up on Facebook and pretend like he knew things about people. And he was doing that for years and years and years. And again, because it's kind of like this self attestation thing, and he's kind of a gregarious, friendly speaker that could control a room pretty well.

And that went on for a very long time. Long way longer than it should have, like at least ten years. But because there's a vulnerability, people in that stream especially, they just want to believe if somebody says they're speaking for the Lord, like most people are going to, like, absolutely believe that, because why on earth would somebody lie about that?

Why on earth would there be a bad actor that is actually making things up, or grooming or preying on vulnerable women? Like you? It's you don't want to think that way. And so the group kind of takes over and goes, there's no way that this pastor, this leader, this speaker could possibly be doing something wrong because I love them and because they're reading from the Bible, like, how can a guy that reads from the Bible, that's a bad point.

Yeah, and we do that. But that's kind of like it has to be like this black or white, like they're either holy or or evil and they can't be evil. So they must be holy because they're saying these great things that I agree with. Yeah. Do you know that there was a study done on positive bias? Because it's negative bias.

We know about that. But the positive bias towards people and what are things that, that they had done is this study with people with the personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, which is sometimes called, you know, psychopathy or sociopathy. And, and this the disturbing interviews where some of them literally said, it's so funny how people want to believe that I'm a good person.

And so that's why I can fool them. I can deceive them. They want to believe it's scary. And so yeah, you want to tell them what they want to hear, and then they'll believe me again and they'll take me back in. And it was I mean, I heard this, this, these interviews. I was so chilled. It was so disturbing.

I wouldn't recommend it to anybody, but it just gave me an awareness of that's my predisposition as well. Like, I see that, I see that, I want to believe, but then then add the God, that's that's chilling. Add the God factor to that. Add the I'm speaking on behalf of the Holy Spirit. I'm speaking I can tell you what the Bible is telling you.

Like, that's a whole nother level of power in dynamics. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, it reminds me of that. Verse in the Bible about being as innocent as does. But as like as. Right. Like. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Why is this servants. Right. And it's such a a balance. Right. Because I'm like like you control.

I don't want my worldview of people and my hope and love and humanity to be jaded. Like, I don't want to live my life. Always a skeptic of, like, assuming everybody's the worst. And then I feel like my quality of life is just going to plummet down. If I start thinking like my initial thought is like, you suck, I can't trust you.

You got to prove yourself like, oh, that or like, yuck, that feels so hard. I couldn't do that. If somebody if someone ever has done that to me, been like, okay, prove yourself before I can or you before you earn my attention, like, what is that like? No thank you. But there's also this element where it's like, I have definitely overplayed the side of being way to excusing of things in people sometimes.

And it's it's not served well. It's not served me well where it's just like, you know, because it's a shame spiral. Because because I'll over own it. I'll be like, how did I miss it? How did I not see this queue or me? And I'm, I'm just like blindly loyal or like whatever, you know? But it's like loyalty in itself is not a bad thing.

I don't want to get rid of that value. I have of, of like being loyal to someone despite mistakes, despite whatever, like shortcomings. But also, I don't want to be so blindly loyal that I lose myself or I lose any sense of of what is true. Yeah. And what is good. Because I'm just trying to. Yeah. So it's just this, this balance of we need both.

We need to be gracious and innocent and posture ourselves in a way that is hopeful and loving, always leading with love. But love is not passive, right? Love is not a no a victim. She's not a victim. Nope. It's fierce and it is smart and it is wise and and and it's like I think sometimes in overemphasizing the soft, welcoming parts that love has, elements that love has, I can negate the more stronger and fierce elements of love, because it's just a tension that I'm still like trying to figure out, you know, like, yeah, I think the balance is important.

Excellent. I think the part you just mentioned, those are the parts in us that are susceptible. It's like looking at why am I not capable of confronting like I think right back to that, the whole JP story of how many people kept excusing his behavior, how many people kept, you know, trying to see the positive inside the negative.

It didn't matter how much negativity there was. There's looking for that. They're looking to forgive. Well, we got to forgive each other. We got to forgive. We got to figure right. It's like, that's why people turn on forgiveness. That's why people turn on, you know, trusting other people. That's why people. It's like, yeah, I get that 100% get that why you turn on that?

I would to a so but moving forward and growing, it's like, can you move forward with the strong version of love which you could like playing this out? I could imagine someone saying, look, there is something wrong here and we need to talk about it. Like what? This is how I'm perceiving it. I need to know what is happening.

What are you doing? Like confronting with that energy of I'm for you and I'm for your well-being. But that means that what you're doing is not good. It's not good for you, and it's not good for other people. Right? I, I don't think it has to be like, it's not good for other people. Even if it's good for you.

If you're bad. No, actually, true love looks at it and says, but that that is whatever you're doing, even if it looks like it's good for you, it's actually not. And it's obvious the man was a very broken, messed up. I mean, they went into his history a little bit, but a little bit they did. It was heartbreaking.

Yes. So it's just like, oh yes. Yeah. So that's why it's like it's hard. Hard love that kind of strong. It is hard for all of us. But it's recognizing what is causing me to be susceptible to, to more that kind of approach. By the way, there are other people who are the opposite who are like I, they only go with the confrontational kind of stuff.

And so their weakness is in the area of the softer kind of stuff, the softer kind of love. And there's a weakness there, by the way, there, just as I love the people who say, I don't trust anybody, that's just like a I'm like, yeah, you're susceptible. I could totally fool you because I become the champion of the very thing that you're concerned about.

Like, yeah, I can't trust anybody. They're full of crap. And, and but I just become the better version of that. I become a better, more articulate, more charismatic more. And if I do that. Guess what? You're going to start following me. So because we we all have our yeah, we all have our susceptibilities, our own infiltration points, they just look different.

So and I'm glad you made this pivot, Joel. And I want to hear more of what your what both your wisdom threads are what you're how we can kind of redeem what we've been talking about. Because obviously we've been kind of analyzing a lot of the problems and systematic issues and some of the tragedy that's been going on, you know, like this story and other stories like it.

But what can we learn? What have you guys learned from observing this? And just like your lived experience? Because again, when Sarina, you were talking, I love you know, we talk about this a lot, like we don't want to have knee jerk reactions to it and like, what you're saying. Tool two we need to acknowledge where we might, have a little lean which which way, which emotion, which stance we take so that we can kind of protect ourselves from going to extreme one way or another.

Because this isn't like a pastor did something wrong. Well, all pastors are bad. I'm going to rebel against authority. Like, we don't want to make jerk reactions like that or broad sweeping decisions. So we need to obviously like, yeah, learn and grow from these scenarios. So like, what if what kind of has come up for you guys as far as like how can we learn, grow and talk about this as a community and a culture to help people?

I mean, for me, I think I'm still learning so much and I continue to learn. I think that's the the first thing, the first approach. I think that for me has been the most, that's been the wiser approach than my previous foolish approaches has been. You don't know what you will know in five years from now. So live with that humility, right?

Don't go into that. This is the landing spot. This is the truth, I know. How would that have been your previous you alluded to a previous foolish. Oh, absolutely. That would have been more of what you did before. Okay. Well, and it was always like this, like, okay, this is how I see the world. This is how I understand how things should work.

This is my version of right and wrong. So I've got clarity around that mostly. And then it gets dashed. So then I have a reaction to that being dashed. Right. And then it's like then I rebuild. And what I rebuild also becomes equally as firm as before. Maybe, maybe, hopefully a little smarter than the previous one, but maybe not.

Maybe more guarded and defended. Oh, interesting. But then. Yeah. That becomes really solid for a while until that gets smashed. And I think it's like, how many times does that happen before we say we need a different approach, which is a learning approach. And I think that's what wisdom is. It's like, how do I have a structure, my current belief, my current understanding of things, but keep it open, keep it, keep it learning a process of not waiting until it's smashed by reality, but being open to course corrections along the way.

So that's the first thing I want to say about wisdom, as I think, what are we learning today? That how, you know, if you can look at your life, you should be able to see where I was five years ago to where I am today, that there are significant areas of growth in your life. I think growth is everything from me.

This is the most it's the wisest approach to life is you are growing and growth has beauty in it. It has truth and it has, you know, like the triad we've been using, goodness, truth and beauty. It has those three things there. So that's where I would say the continue ongoing learning. So I don't just have this constant reaction.

Right. Rebuilding, reacting because it gets smashed, rebuilding, reacting. So, so the growth the growth counteracts the reactionary stance or reactionary. Yeah. It's exactly. There we go. Yeah. Now how can we how can we help people grow through this situation if they're looking at this going, wow, this thing called church, this thing called pastors, this thing called God is so abusive and messed up.

Just based on this situation alone, you could get a tainted reactionary view. Like, how can we speak into that a little bit? I say we are going to make you. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I just feel I feel for a lot of people, you know, I just do. My heart breaks when I think about, Mica having to end her life, if that's what happened.

It just breaks my heart, man. It's just like to have a person go have to go all the way to that point. And, I mean, I'm with I'm with her right now. In my heart, it's like solidarity with you. I get it. If it was me, I might have made the same choice. Yeah. So that's the first thing I want to say.

I'm with her and I'm with the people in the church as well, who have suffered in the various different ways. I think when I pull myself out and I'm just looking at them as like, what's wrong with you people? You know, it's analysis or just, wow, that's such an interesting thing. And I can look at it at a distance.

I don't learn, I, I learned up here, maybe, but I don't really learn as a three centered learning head heart and body. Body meaning I'm living differently now. So my my my my perception is change, my affect, even what I see with more compassion, I see with more empathy, and then I change my behavior. I think that's the approach that I would encourage people as the sort of this is where you're moving, what you're moving toward.

But if you're in this position, you know, you've if you've watched it, watched the Netflix series, if you've been tracking with what's going on. Just to pay attention to how it's impacting you and to be kind to yourself. Like if you're at a place where you're one who identifies with a lot of use, that you've been a victim of it.

And right now it's just you're angry. Be angry if you're struggling with I. I can't even forgive somebody like that. Then that. Don't. That sounds that sounds so terribly not non-religious or non-Christian. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I know, I know, and I'm totally comfortable with that because I've walked people through forgiveness for many decades and I know that it works.

And I know it works for me. You have to own your own pain. You have to understand what's happened to you before you can move forward. But I think if you can see that that's where you are in not a landing place, the the thing that kills us is when we see it as a final. This is it, right?

We we struggle with holding paradox. Withholding forgiveness is one on the other end of this continuum. And right now where I'm at just anchor bitterness and unforgiveness. We can't hold both within us and I think we should be able to. It's like, oh, right now my heart does not want to forgive at all. And at the same time, I can also see that this is the stage I'm in, and eventually I will get to the place where I can forgive and I can release.

And that's the growth. That's the that's the growth. Yeah, that's the journey. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And, you said be kind to yourself and all that and also be kind to others around us. Obviously equally important, because we can get into a very judgmental mindset. And, you know, we've mentioned that kind of alluded to that kind of reaction.

But, you know, be kind to people like JP who who, you know, whoever that might be in your life or even as a figurehead. There should be empathy towards people. People you don't like, politicians you don't like, you know, family members. I think there is a level of empathy or kindness we still need to show people we might have a problem with, and that, again, might look like forgiveness and anger at the same exact time.

So it's a very complicated thing. But again, what I'm trying to get at is like not just hating people and having anger judgment. You know, wanting wrath. And. Yeah, because that doesn't lead anywhere constructive and good. You know, look at today's is the 25th anniversary of nine over 11. I will mention that we're recording that today. Yeah.

There's a lot of emotions, a lot of wrath, a lot of vengeance. We could we could put up camps around our ideological differences with other nations and people that have done act like some of these people did horrific things. But just don't let the hate and the lack of forgiveness and and that, you know, divisive mindset just cloud, your life.

You know, we got to deal with the consequences of people's actions. But hopefully we find healing and forgiveness on. That doesn't mean. Excusing this is a thing people don't understand. Not it's like I can release, you can release, but you can also say, hey, for the greater good of society, you need to you you need to pay some consequences.

You know. There was a consequence for what happened on nine over 11. There's, you know, there's a trial. There's going to be maybe consequences. Whatever's found with, with this situation, other church situations that people might be thinking about, this whole conversation, there's going to be consequences. And there should be for people that do wrongs. Yes. But don't let the consequence in the meantime be a hard horror and an angry posture, you know, in your own life, because then it just, you know, compounds a tragic circumstance.

Yeah. Going back to like, what can we learn? What is this situation, this story kind of give space for us to get to pause and reflect and move higher from hopefully to grow from. Right. Like kind of taking it into starting with myself. You know, one of the most moving aspects of watching this, this doc series was, the parts where they shared Mica's journal because it was so vulnerable and relatable to me, because her intention was so was so pure.

Like she just wanted to be a good wife. Like she was trying to be a good wife. She was trying to be a good follower of Jesus. She was trying to be a good worship leader. And it was in her journal the privacy of that sacred space. Her motivation came out about like, I just want to do this.

Well, yeah. And that got taken advantage of. And that's the tragedy, right? That's the injustice. That's where it gets like, right. The complexity of it. And and I can relate to a lot of what she shared in her journal. Like I, I've felt that before. Just like I just want to do this well and I'm trying and we're all trying to do our best, right.

Like we're trying to do our best, I think. And sometimes even in our best, like, we can have these blinders or we can have these excuses, or we can get put in really bad situations. But like from that intent, that pure intention, like, I don't want to let go of that pure intention. And I don't think that pure intention was a flaw in in Mica.

I have to believe that it was good and it was the the injustice wasn't on her part in wanting to be a good wife. Right. You know. Oh, that's not the wrong. Yeah, right. Like it's the wrong came from the outside in that situation, right. Like. Right. So how do I in resonating with that in in that motivation.

In that desire. Still stay open and not be afraid of being manipulated. Not being afraid of of of trusting someone again, you know, it's like I also want to learn to not overemphasize and not put so much weight in one person, so much weight in one community, in one system, in one figure, that they become an idol.

So that I have this blindness to just, again, going back to that, like blind loyalty, where I'm not able to have any autonomy to be present with, like, wait, what? Do what is right, right now? What do what do I want? Is this a good situation? Like. But like I don't want to become so bitter that I cut it all off.

Like what you were saying, Denver. It's just like we just go to the extreme of being like. It's all like, we don't want to go and demonize people. Like, I don't want to have to be afraid of of people. Like, I think when we try and make people more than they are, we're doing it wrong. And when we try and make people less than they are, we're doing something wrong.

You know, there's like this balance and, and I don't want to make make people more than their support, give them a higher role in my life than they're supposed to, so that I can give permission for them to, to mess up because they're human. Yeah. And when they mess up, because it's going to happen, hopefully not in a way, but when people messed up in my life, my world won't crumble because I still hold on to like, oh, I that's I can give grace to it. Right.

But I'm not. It's so balancer. I can, I can hear the narrative of things like going a thousand directions here, but I'm not going to shut myself off from being connected to it. So it's like the difference between like relying on others where they become this idol and, and they can be crushing if they make a mistake.

Like, I don't want to become overreliant, but I don't want to become so numb and like, guarded that I'm not I'm, I lose connection. So it's like coming down with reliance but staying connected, staying in it, staying, pushing through and like wanting to give the benefit of the doubt. Even if I do look stupid sometimes, but not to the point of abuse.

But like again, the growth. I think the story, the narrative. Like what would Mica want? I mean, I don't know, I don't want to put words in or, or assumptions in her, but what I, I what impacted me the most was the purity of heart and intention that she had. And and that was profound. And I don't want that that impact to be less than because it's okay.

Now, I got to be super skeptical. And I got to watch that purity, that pure intention to want to be a good wife, to want to do my job well, to want to show up and and and be a light in this world. I don't want that to diminish because. Yeah. Mica got hurt, you know, so. Absolutely. Well.

And I so appreciate you saying all that. The there's a lot of depth and wisdom there. I think that the whole connection peace remaining in relationship remaining, you know, not with everybody, but just believing in connection and relationship and continuing to practice that while at the same time recognizing back to what we were talking about earlier, the susceptibilities that we have, they always show up in areas where we feel under-resourced or we feel less capable.

And that's where we without even awareness, that's where we find people that are more so than us in those areas. And they can. Such a good point. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's talk about I'm sure you've done a lot of study on that. I know, especially with the Art of growth side too. I want you to talk about that more on future episodes, because that's that's a huge that's that's really big, Joel. Yes.

That's what I leave leave, folks, with just that question of like, just just ask that question of yourself. Like, what is in me that when I've been duped, when I've been fooled, when I've been hurt, what was it that I was looking for that maybe I didn't feel like I could give to myself, you know? And, And I became overreliance on someone to meet that need, which gave them power.

You know, I think ultimate agency is that internal job of I'm reliant on ultimate source. Could be God for many, but I'm not ultimately reliant on the resources which are people. And I think when we begin to see the distinction that they're resources and, but that ultimately I need to grow not that you we become omni competent.

That's not my message here, right? No, no. It's anybody. It's just that I've taken agency for my own needs where I say, oh, I'm not very good at this. I'm going to ask for help in this area, but I'm in charge of my own internal need. I'm not putting that. I'm not giving that that to somebody else to take control.

That's the loss of agency in my mind. Yeah. I don't have some grand finale here, but that's, that's really it. Yeah, that's really it right there. Merging wisdom.