Jesse Eubanks: Discovering Desire Through The Enneagram Part 2 - Ep. 8

Merging Wisdom All right, everyone, welcome back to Merging Wisdom. I'm super excited to have a part two on this desire thing that we started talking about here with Sarina. Awesome. Sarina. Super excited to do stuff. Always happy to do stuff with with you and Jesse. I've already started promoting your podcast to others, and there's been some pretty some pretty excited people like what he's doing that like that's pretty impressive.

So anyways, loving what you're doing in the world and and excited to have this conversation about desire, as something that a lot of people I've talked to other people about this, like I've talked to, you know, Jesse was talking about desire on our podcast and, and people are like, wow, okay. Like we're I don't know that I've heard many people talk about desire.

So I think it's such an important thing. And to do that and we're going to do that through the framework of the Enneagram. Don't worry if you're unfamiliar with this system. You don't need to be, because what we're going to do is just give you something that you'll immediately be able to go, oh, that's yeah, I know someone like that or that is me.

And, and so we'll do that before I dive in though. Any preliminary remarks from either one of you? So I was just going to say, if you are new to this, there's a great temptation that stands in front of all of us when we encounter the integrand, which is like the great, any grand party trick where like your next get together, you're going around the room and you are convinced, you know, everybody's type.

And so. Oh, yeah. So just a small reminder like we don't understand everybody's motives. And so that's right. And motive is what sets the endgame apart. So. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Do a different party trick next time. Although I have done the drunk party and I've typed them all, and surprisingly, they were really, like, had no problem talking about their core motivation.

Not surprisingly. So that was pretty fun. All right. So let's begin with I'm going to begin with the type eight and just describe the I'm not going to describe a lot about it. Just a few things I want to explain. The sensitivity. Each type is like more sensitive to something than other than other types. And for the type beat, it would be that the sensitivity to being weak, to being vulnerable, to losing any sense of agency in your life, the ability to act on your behalf, actions, everything.

It's like, can I act on my own, on my own behalf? Or is that being taken from me? And that's pretty constant for this type, even if they're not conscious of it. When they become conscious of they see it everywhere. It's like, oh, I'm doing that all the time. So this is sort of the, the sensitivity of the, So, Jesse, what would be the desire then of the eight and explore that from both, like here's some of the lower desires and then maybe some of the higher does however you want to frame that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I would even frame it like this. So you know, we're talking about type eight, which actually there are three different types that sort of sit together in what people call the gut trade or the body triad, and a lots going on bodily for these people. And so for a lot of folks that are in this group, so this is going to be the eight, the nine and the one, the next three that we're going to talk about, they're going to actually feel this desire physically show up almost even before emotionally or mentally, they're going to even realize that it's present.

And so bizarre for the eight, which are, you know, often sort of carry that it named the the powerful person. But they have a desire to protect. They have a real sense that this is a world where there's energy that's going out and energy that's coming against, and they feel it against them. Almost. If you imagine somebody like trying to push the ocean back, there's just this, this thing where they really want to protect themselves, they want to protect the people they love.

They really value their autonomy. Autonomy is huge and important for the eight. And so, so what does this look like when it's healthy, you know? Yeah, they're going to take care of the people around them. They're going to be confident leaders. You know, they are not going to let other people get bullied and pushed around. And so they're going to be very boundary themselves.

But yeah, it can get out of control. And for every desire, there's always a, you know, I don't know what you want to call it, like a synthetic version, a fake version then. And each type, they can't tell the difference between the real one and the fake one. And for the eight, it's really hard for them to tell the difference between the healthy desire of wanting to protect, but they'll slide down into the counter type, which is that they settle for control and they really have a hard time telling a difference.

Like a good defense is a good offense like so they they end up spending a lot of their energy just trying to control everything about themselves and even the people around them. So I think of an eight that I was talking to recently, and that's how things were going in life, and they've been doing some therapy work recently and said, how's that going?

They're like, yeah, you know, I'm really learning to be vulnerable, but like in a healthy way. And what they meant by that was like, I'm not I wasn't like letting them get a little too close. Like I'm I was sharing I'm sharing. But like, they're not going to get me, you know. And so, it's so instinctual for them at times to, to want to stay in control.

But control is really not what they're after. What they're really after is they're there after not being wounded and taken advantage of by others. Yeah. I would also say that they this desire to really do something good in the world like to impact, the people they care about, impact, groups of people, if that's where their attention goes.

And many of them have talked about the feeling of like I've aimed my attention, I've watched them hit low places of almost depression when it's like us pouring my energies in a direction to find out that that was not what the organization wanted, that was not what my partner wanted. And I feel like, what the hell? You know, it's just like, really distressing, when that's not the case.

And so that couples with that what you're describing as that desire, you know, to sometimes looks like. Yeah, it does look like control and sometimes it is control. But it's, it's that higher desire of I want to have an impact. I also want to take ground. So that's another thing. It's like the need to take ground to conquer.

So that's, you know, within them. And that can go over to the other side of like, you know, the insatiable need to stimulate, to feel alive, to conquer, rather than like that more innocent approach, which is like, yeah, I am made to, to take ground and to conquer, but how am I going about doing that? And is that beneficial to truly beneficial to me and to others as well.

And that's sometimes difficult to tell. Yeah, their desire can definitely. It gets to where there's almost a sense of like, if I can take it from you, you let me take it from you. And therefore, you know, I haven't really done anything like it's not my fault that, you know, you don't have strength to me. And so there can be this sense of like, they're just their territory just keeps expanding and there's they don't have an understanding of like where you end and they begin, like, that's all.

So they're just taking up so much room because they feel it bodily. They are just you watch these people, they literally walk strong. I mean literally like, yeah, oh yeah. They walk with broader shoulders and they project strength. It's just part of, you know, the the gorillas with the chest up. It's just part of how they, they move in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. They don't. They walk deliberately. You're absolutely right. It's it's the funniest thing to watch. You know guy play racquetball with would come marching in and it was like stomp stomp stomp stomp stomp. Hey, how's it going? Stomp stomp stomp stomp stomp. Hey, how are you? Good to see you. You know, it's just that, like the body itself, not the not what's coming up, because that was the contrast.

It was, like, very nice, you know, greeting people, saying hi, having conversation. But the body itself was conveying this. And so I'm glad you talked a lot about that, that that's a lot of what people are feeling around type eights. Sarina, what are your some thoughts that come to mind? Oh, lots of thoughts. I kind of want to bring it back to like, the first conversation we had.

Just so you brought up, towards the end of that conversation about how, like, a big part of, like, humanity's purpose is, like relationship and like, needing one another and all that. So I kind of want to string that into this a little bit. And, when you mention it with a, with a type A, and there's strong need for autonomy, it's because of that desire and that need, in my experience with, with some friends and relationship with with people who identify as eight, it's almost like there's this protection that happens with a or a, a wall that comes up with whenever they feel like they're autonomy is getting threatened, right?

And relationship and connection can sometimes come across as a threat to that because it's it's connection. It's not separation. It's not the independence, it's interdependence. And, and and so I almost wonder, is there any way like because I, I have to believe like I resonate so much with your that great statement about our purpose as you may, is like is for a relationship.

So even in apes need in wanting to be autonomous but needing that connection to like even their desire to protect, even their desire to like impact, it has to do with people, right? But like, how do they soften and like allow the connection, allow the fingerprints to inhabit there without the threat? Because, my gosh, that can come across.

So like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. Like I didn't want, I didn't I didn't mean to like annoy you with my friendship or something. You know, like those kinds of thoughts can come up sometimes in relationship with apes or, or just the intimidation factor of like, wait, I thought we were friends, but now there's just this bluntness and people can take their bluntness as like as rejection, really.

It's just love and in like, a hard shell. But it's there, I think, you know? So yeah, like, how do you, how to h like, lean into, like, not feeling so threatened by connection. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, a lot of times you're watching a movie and there'll be like a poker scene, and the one character is trying to figure out, the other characters tell, you know, and eights have a tell, and they're going to be so angry when I say it, when it's a set out loud, because you'll never not see it.

Which is if you've ever watched an eight hold a baby play with a small kid, play with a puppy. Whenever an eight interacts with any living thing that they perceive as innocent, they are touching the very thing that they themselves felt that they were not afforded. The reason they want to protect it is because in some way, it felt that it was taken from them.

They had to be bigger than they were, faster than they should have been. They were the small kid on the playground that had to, you know, become the big guy. And so by engaging, by the aid, engaging with other living people and creatures that are alive that they perceive as innocent, they had the opportunity to be reminded that they they have that same option.

They don't always have to be the big guy. They don't always have to be the one in charge. And then instead of it being all about, I'm going to use my strength to protect this little one. What does it mean to remember yourself as that little one? What does it mean to remember yourself as that? There was a time in life when you're playing with that 3 or 4 year old, and it seemed like they trust everybody.

There was a time where you did as well and allow yourself to go there, which can be a grieving process. But I, I consistently find that when I see eights engaging with living creatures that they perceive as innocent, it invites them to innocence. Yeah, yeah, there was something Nadia Bolts Webber said years ago when she was interviewed.

On the road back to you, and she was asked about being a pastor and an eight, and, you know, this very formidable individual tattoos everywhere, just like. And she'd say, you know, before, one of the things I had to, I've learned is before I get up to speak is I find somebody in the audience who I'm friends with, somebody who I know the family really well, who has a little child, and I'll pick up that little child and it softens me.

And then I'm able to get up and be more human in my, delivery. So, so anyway, so it's a it's a really important point. All right, let's move on to the type nine. Sensitivity is to disruption. That's a word I use a lot with them, and they seem to resonate a lot with that because again, you're talking about body center, so they're feeling it viscerally.

It's like an earthquake. It's like minor tremors that they pick up before anybody else does. And that unsettles their, their their sense, their physical sense. And so anything ranging from change depends on the and the night again. So anything ranging from change in their environment to all the way to conflict, those things are, are disruptive. So I'm going to pull back on myself.

It's not hard for me to do that anyways is a nine. So I'm going to pull back from myself. Meaning I'm going to deprive my thoughts, my desires, my own feelings about things and prioritize others. And that's a way to maintaining that. You know, that harmony, that peace, the the avoidance really, of disruption. It's not of actively doing something.

It's more of the avoidance of the disruption. So talk about the nine from a desire standpoint. Yeah. The personality of the nine is really organized around this desire for peace. And it's when we think of peace, it's easy to sort of I don't know, we think of it sort of in a vague like, just bland sort of way.

But really it's it's a desire for a wholeness. It's a desire that everything is as it should be and and not in a ethical sense, but in a sense of like, it's harmonious. Yeah. You know, so it's the Christian concept. Concept of shalom. It is. Everything is as it should be, and all is under God's watchful care.

And so, and it's a desire really to live at peace, but with themselves and with others. So internal disruption for themselves is extremely distressing. But it's also distressing for them if they perceive that somebody else has discord with them, you know, or you cutting me out. Are you cutting me off? Are you ignoring me? Are you pushing me away? Are you abandoning me?

All these things happen. And, And so really, what happens is the nine ends up sort of absorbing the other person's, you know, preferences, the other person's opinions, the other, the addiction becomes, sort of an emotional path of least resistance. And so sort of whatever's right in front of them, it's how do I make this pain go away?

And and for a lot of nines, you know, Joel, as you've already said it, there's a sense that they fall asleep. You know, a lot of times, the imagery that people will give to the nine, you know, these are folks that are awake but not awake. You know, their sleep, but they're not asleep. And so they're in this in-between state that becomes very hard for them to take hold of things.

And the reason for that is because they have a very hard time telling the difference between, I want peace and I want comfort. Comfort and peace become very confusing for a lot of nines. And so, so they can just end up sort of settling into this like, you know, become the most stubborn of all the types. You know, the other image can be they'll be donkeys.

You pull on them and they resist, and you pull on them hard and they lay down, and so they can just fall asleep to their desires, numb themselves. And they're really sensitive as well to, to to them being overlooked, but also watching other people be overlooked. Yeah, yeah. And so, so like, it was really kind of amazing.

There was a time where I was around a type nine and, this particular type nine like grew up sort of geek culture. D and D kind of the nerdy kid in, like, a very blue collar, you know, tough guy town. And so, like, I, like, made a joke about LARPing. I don't know, you know, live action role playing like, these things that people do.

And I thought it was hysterical. And he was not. He goes, that's not funny. He goes, a lot of those people, or they do that because nobody else cares about them, because nobody else will with them, because nobody else they don't, you know? So all of a sudden it was really great. It was actually this, this sort of of energy kind of came out.

Of there we go. She's like, he's like, don't, don't step on those other folks. And so, yeah, so this desire for peace really can come out as, just a whole hearted engagement. They are wonderful people to share hard things with because they're so accepting, they're great listeners. They're very accepting. And, and so they really bring in this sort of spirit of mediation.

I could see why you would feel that way. Have you also thought about this? And they do it in this way that's like not offensive at all. You know, they're probably like they're all they all could be like master like hostage negotiators. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, so. Yeah. So. So with, this desire for harmony. What do you think is is like a gift the nine has to bring to the world beyond, just like, I mean, I see sounds like something that can rise up, but it might take a lot of poking to get it.

But if there's a way for, like, nines to kind of, like, settle in within themselves and, like, discover that that inner desire and that driver to be able to motivate into action beyond, like whatever resistance, forcing resistance they might think be, might be there. I think, I think for a lot of nines there's going to be kind of two things.

I think that one of them is again you know, we're talking about folks that are really embodiment is just playing a huge role for them. And for nines a lot of nines they really don't. You go, how do you feel about that? They have no idea what you're asking. What do you think about that? They really can't figure it out.

So a lot of nines that I talked with tell me that they've literally learned to look down and look at their body language, because their body language is communicating like a billboard to everybody. This is where I feel. But the nine can't see it themselves. And so literally they look down and they look at my hands clinched, you know, am I tapping my leg furiously?

Am I, you know, feeling tension in my body so the nine would it would serve them well to pay attention to what's going on in their bodies, because that actually is an indicator of how they feel about the life that they're living in the scenario, engaging. And then the other the other thing, which is really hard for nine, it's if you can get into your body, pay attention to it, get it moving, wake it up.

But then that other piece that's hard, it's that mental. What deserves my priority and my convictions. That's very hard for a nine, because staking a claim means you're also saying no to things, and you're going to disappoint people, and you're going to bring up conflict. So the more that they can really do the practice of staying awake themselves, and that's going to look like a simple thing of making a list every day.

Three items. These are these are the things you're going to go do. And then you go do those things or journaling. Then you have to be a ton. But just enough like the but the goal is stay awake to yourself. Don't fall asleep. Yeah. One of the one of the techniques I give them is every day. Just take just take five minutes, whether you're in the bathroom or something else.

Just what do I want? What do I think? What do I feel? And and sometimes those and those are very difficult to answer because like you said, it's very difficult to see. And it is helpful for, for other people also to point out, like, you actually don't like this. I remember coaching a nine. It was telling me, no, my job is fine, I'm good.

But everything physically was communicating. I hate my job. And so I just said, I don't think you do. Your body is telling me it doesn't. And she finally got it. She's like, you're right. It's just like, it's I. But it was hard to get there. So, Yeah. So absolutely great answer. And, there's so many it's an endless what we could talk about in terms of helping them.

But one of the things that's interesting about the holy, you don't need to know this audience, but the holy idea, it's like being. Yeah. Am I worthy is the question. Am I worthy of prioritizing myself? That's always the the the most painful thing for a nine to answer. But that's what actually gets to desire because now they're talking.

You know, I think we said this last time, it's like desire is located much more in the sort of heart center like the head centers. The negotiator can make a think of anything. I could come up with all kinds of, you know, in the body centers, more of like, here's what we're going to do. We're going to move in this direction. It's listening to the heart.

Here's what we're going to do. So that's really like a fine some people that are so separated from their own heart center struggling with desire. And once we get there, it starts to wake up. Some of that, you know, again. Yeah. And one of the things that can be tough to for, for some nines, you know, because there can be a tendency to go like I'll get to that win.

Like I'll do I'll address that win. And what happens for a lot of nines, you know, and I'm, you know, not to like free people up, but like, I've seen a lot of nines that because they put it off, there comes an age and a stage in life where you can't anymore. It's forced upon you. You're your psyche, your soul.

You're very being just says, enough's enough. Stuff starts coming out. And if the nine hasn't begun to do that work, it's really almost equivalent of like they've not developed the muscle strength to know how to handle what's coming. And so so then a lot of anger will come out and a lot of passive aggressive stuff, and they sort of feel like everybody took my life from me and I was living somebody else's life.

And why did I make these choices? And there's a huge grief that has to happen, but there's such a catch up because of the tendency to want to stay asleep. And so, so yeah. So it's just it's a, it's a long it's a road. And so. Yeah. Last piece of ice, if you, if you love and none in your life don't cut them off.

Let them. Ever. Let them talk. Let them talk. It will take a while to get there, but they will. That plane will get off the ground and they are saying something important. Takes like what? A sea C-130 planes, a big huge planes. It takes a while. To. Get there. It'll get there. There. Yeah, yeah. Yes yes, yes. Great advice.

All right. Type one. This is the also still in the body. Center. And so for the type one, the desire or excuse me, the sensitivity really is I'm, you know, I want to be good. I want to be ethically good. You know, I want to do the right thing. And so there's a sensitivity to, to that piece, which everybody today.

I hate to use the word integrity because everybody likes that word today and uses that word. But for the type one, there's a whole lot of meaning around that. And it's like, man, not living up to my own internal standards, but that's that's constantly on my mind, that's constantly there for me to observe. Like, how am I doing in relationship to my inner inner standards?

And so they feel that at a visceral level again as well. It's like, you know, like and and the and the hope to like we I know we could get there. I know we can do this, but there's that there's that sensitivity to, what is good. What is not good. What is chaos? What is ordered? Even from a relational standpoint.

So not just talking about physical. We're talking about the whole gamut. And but it is that like, chaos rule for, for type ones. Do you ever get them into a place of and again, we're not talking about chaos in the physical. A lot of people over do this and they're like ones. Yeah, they like a neat house and like, that's not true.

Some do a lot to my, you know, one of my siblings does, but it's not consistent for all of them. But it is this visceral sense of when I'm around a certain situation and I feel like it is out of order. Like it is chaotic, like it is not right. That's what I'm sensitive to. Yeah. And so all of this is coming from this, this organizing desire for integrity.

And when we say the word integrity to your point, like there's we have to think about it sort of in layers. Typically when we say integrity, we sort of like the first layer we think of is just moral, upright, just, you know, they're morally up, righteous. They, and they want to be moral and they want to do good, and they don't want to do evil, and they want to heal and they don't want to harm, and they want to be above board and they don't want to be deceptive.

All those things are true. But even those sort of feel in service of this, this other idea of integrity, which like when you think of the integrity of a bridge, it means that the bridge is built as it should be built for the load and the responsibilities and the duties and the station that that bridge has to perform.

And for a lot of ones, that's what they long for, is to sort of like, I'm built for this. I have, you know, I do have enough goodness and righteousness and ethics and, you know, the ability to see what should be done in conviction to fight against injustice, all that's there. But it's all part of this sort of ecosystem, which is really about I'm built and built well.

So, so they want to be able to live according to their convictions. They want to reform what's broken, and they want to pursue justice. Now, when integrity sort of starts to take a different shape, because a lot of ones feel like, I can't, I'm never going to achieve the degree of integrity that I actually want. It is so infinitely beyond my capacities.

So what they settle for and what they can mistaken on is perfection. So they end up becoming sort of this very, self rigid presence. And what I tell people a lot is that if we could hear the internal monologues of how one speak to themselves, we would lock that voice up, like in jail forever, because it's so abusive.

There's really a a self condemning inner voice that gets just dialed way up. And so, so yeah, so there is this sense in which, they end up aiming for perfection. So they do, you know, to your point, you do go to a lot of one's houses and everything as it should be. You go into their office and everything is like neatly organized.

But that's a bit of a stereotype. The the bigger thing that you're really going to experience often is a person that is really torn in life, like, I don't. I got all these different things that I need to do, and I don't exactly know the right way to do all of them. And so there's sort of just this friction that exists and then where they want to relax and you can tell they don't feel that that's really true like that.

That's not really a choice for them. And so if in the eighth you see this sort of this very confident presence and then the nine, you sort of see this sort of low tone, loosey goosey posture, I can spot a one walking down the street. And it's because they stand upright, they stand firm, and often they sort of have.

There's a bit of a clenching that sort of exists in their, in their body. And, and that's from them telling them selves, don't do that so many times in life, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. And so eventually it just sort of shuts down. So that's why also if you ever see a one who's an athlete or a one who jogs or one that goes to the gym, they're actually like crazy delightful right after because their body sort of has loosened up, which is sort of allowed, like their internal world to loosen up to.

It's wild to witness the relationship between that physical and that internal world. So, yeah, what do you all think? So I think once in my life bring this beautiful picture of, like, an ideal world, right? Like they are the ones with all the answers all of the time. But. But in that it's sometimes is too much in this, like how things should be.

And and like you were saying, Jesse, like, that self-critical voice is almost like countering that, that ideal, that dream that they hold, and it's just criticizing how far they are from it. And so they stop it before they even like traveling it, you know, like this analysis paralysis. Sometimes I, I've seen patterns of that. But but beyond that, it's like when they get into this space of like.

Or like going back to like how do how do I connect? How does what is the one, what is the light that a one brings to the world? And oftentimes it is seeing things as they ought to be. But in that space of seeing things as they ought to be, I want to be invited as a friend of a one to like I you're saying how it should be.

But can you show me how? It could be like, I want to know the reality. Like, here's the ideal, but here's the reality. Like, in a perfect world, you'll have all these resources. All this situational stuff would be perfect and everything like that. Perfectionism can sometimes, like, be their worst enemy, right? But I want to I want to go there, like when they can articulate something and there's something deep inside of me that responds like, yes, that you're right.

Like that's how it should be. But then I'm also like, okay, I can't do that. So I'm not even going to try show me how I could get there. Here's the reality. So almost like when one's can step into that space of could this how could go, you know, it's like, let's go, let's dream, baby, let's, let's change the world.

Let's make it, let's, let's see this ideal. You have actually become a reality because that higher, that higher reality that they just live in is unreal to me. It's like so inspiring. It's so like, wow, how do you see with these Technicolor glasses that I like miss sometimes because I'm just too much in reality or too much in the practical, you know?

So yeah, I don't, I don't know if there's a question in there, but yeah, just one's being able to step from the should to the could and then like bringing others along, wondering if there's like purpose and desire in that and like, what, what they bring to the world. Yeah. I was a so a lifelong buddy of mine is, is Mike Casper, who is the host of Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.

And, Mike and I were talking recently, and one of the things that he was talking about is he said, I've never seen someone truly changed by being shamed or guilted into it. And, and I think that that's a thing that's really hard for ones to remember, because their belief is if I would just be harder on myself or harder on others, we would all finally get our act together.

And and if I and if I ease up and if I ease up, then I'm not taking the problem seriously and nobody else is taken like so. There's just so much they feel like the only way to resolve it is I have to be the the big moral voice in my heart and in the room, because no one else is going to do it.

Yeah. That's seriousness. Yeah, there's a seriousness. So it's like a lot of times I mean my thing and I can't recommend this that everybody does this. But, I mean, my thing with my friends that are ones, you know, I see them. I'm like, so how's how's the drug business going? You know, like, you know, our kids still really getting into crack these days.

Like, I just sort of, like, lean into. Yeah. Speaking of them, like, they're the most immoral, you know, drug selling fools in the world, and then they start going, oh, stop, stop. And then they sort of go. Lighten up a little. They could lighten up like it's all, yeah, you know, and it's also a way for me to sort of show to them, like, I know what you like.

I see you like, I know you're hard on yourself. And I also make these jokes because you're not. Congratulations. You don't sell drugs to kids. You're not as evil as you think you are. So there is this difference with, like, instead of lining up with what they see as like what should be, it's almost better to counter it with like not joking, but just like humanizing them to let them relax and let go a little bit of that grip.

Yeah, you have to create the atmosphere. You have to. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. In coaching with them, I immediately create an atmosphere of grace. It's it's because it allows them to kind of start to relax a little bit on themselves. If I amp up in any way, even if I'm harsh on myself in front of them. Yeah, that doesn't help at all. That makes.

Yeah. Or even. Trying to validate. It's like a double layer of like that validation does that. Is that like a counter? Yeah. I don't validate that part. What. But it is important for them to be seen as, as good people. And so I, I see the goodness in them. But but here here's the thing from, you know, one of the things I've done with them is to take them through the first three verses of Genesis.

And, I talk about the beginning of all things is in chaos, and it's a beautiful chaos, but it's a terribly unsettling chaos as well, because there's water that covers the face of the deep and it's darkness, the two primordial, terrifying forces that existed. And and then I say to them, but then what happens is, before there's any sort of ordering of anything like light and darkness day, night, you know, land, sea, sky, was any of that?

It says, spirit hovered above the waters. Can you become one who hovers above the waters of chaos and be present to it? And then in that moment when you can do that, then you can start to see the beauty of what is, and not just immediately go to the ugliness and the imperfections, and that eats on you to produce all of that, to make that happen.

And so you become present. You participate with God in hovering above the waters of chaos, and you know that that's you at your best. And oftentimes I will watch as they start to relax. Sometimes tears will start to come because it is what they really want to do is to become present to the chaos and to create space for other people to be imperfect around them, because they're very good at naturally, you know, seeing how things could and should be, as you said, Serena.

So that's the that's a you know, that's the sort of picture. And then I invite them to see what is already beautiful in the midst of this chaos, what's already good. And, and then I affirm, no, no, no. Things aren't as they should be. You're absolutely right. And that is part of your design and desire is to move things in that direction.

So but you you're going to do it in an ugly way if you don't, you know, pause and tune in to your own heart center and see the beauty and tune in to your own desire. That's one of the big things I work with them on. Speaking of desire, that is one of the biggest ones. I work on them.

What do you want? What do you desire? Because you're trying to work your way to earn your way to finally having the agency. You seek the freedom you seek, but you know you'll never get there. You'll never be good enough. You'll never. So how do you begin to take agency over your own heart and your own desires?

You already have it. And you just. You already have it. Yeah. Yeah. You already got it. Here's your here's your pop culture reference. And, you know, for those in the Marvel movies, but like, you know, I mean, Captain America is like your classic one who did what he did out of, you know, good duty to help other people, willing to lay his life down, willing to lay on the grenade.

But then his journey over all the movies, was it eventually, in the end, he chose what he wanted. He had done enough, and it was time for him to choose what he wanted. And I won't say what it was. In case you haven't seen a movie. Haven't seen. Him seven years old. But yeah, but just. In case I have not.

I'm sorry. Okay. I'm okay. Maybe you did, and I will get there. I don't know. Isn't there isn't. There a scene, though, in which he says something like. He says a. He says like poop or something like that. And, and I think it's Iron Man is like, oh, watch your mouth or something like, it was such a great I forget the exact same.

It was such a great moment of like, yeah, there it is. The one's leaking a little bit and it feels so like bad because everybody else. In their experiences, Iron Man cusses. And literally Captain America in the radio is like language. Everybody like. And so he's correcting it. That's right. And then later on, you know, he cusses.

And I think our Manchester like, can you believe the mouth on this guy. You know. And so. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah yeah. That's what you talk about. So so obviously like type. It's just so good. It's It's because. Those are good examples now I love it. All right, let's move on to heart types. Type two.

So the type two has a sensitivity to proximity. So they feel the distance all the time between themselves and the people they love. And that distance is very disruptive. It's very uncomfortable. It's something that they, they, they both notice, but they're also pained by. And so there's a desire to close that distance between themselves and other people.

So that sensitivity is like always measuring, always feeling what is going on in the space. How are you doing, what's happening with you and that, trying to close that and bring real connection. So in terms of relationship, as you ask Sarina, that is one of the things that is classic too. It's like I'm going to make the connection happen because if I don't, it's not going to happen.

All right. So I'll stop here because I think then we'll that'll bleed into some of the desire components. But yeah. What do you think of that Jesse. Yeah I agree and I'd say like it all comes from this desire to be wanted. But even wanted is probably too weak of a word. You know, maybe a word like cherished might be a better a better word.

It's the sense of. I am specially chosen. Yeah. I like that word specific way by the people in my life. And and so it's a desire to receive love. You know, I've a lot of times in Christian faith we talk about the calling to love other people. And, you know, a decade ago or so, you know, it was the older sage and he was saying, you know, loving others is hard.

Learning to be love is way harder. And and I think that, that the twos really sort of embody that desire of, I want this, I want to be cherished. I want to know that I am wanted regardless of whether I do nothing. I want to know that my needs matter. All those things, but, they don't really often they don't believe that they can really just be wanted, no strings attached.

So what they mistake it for the counterfeit is being indispensable. And so it's this, I you need to need me. If I can create an environment by which you can't survive or function apart from needing me in some way, then I know that I'm relationally secure. You're not going to throw me out because you need me. Yeah.

Therapists refer to that as a as being enmeshed, you know, as being codependent. And, and so suddenly helping isn't like, I'm. I'm not just helping you for you. I'm helping you because I need to receive what you will give me in response to me helping you. And so they end up repressing their own needs. In fact, you go to two and you'll go like, hey, what do you need?

And they'll go, oh, don't even think, what do you need? And they mean it. It's like, I don't need anything. It's almost an instinctual response. And then the next turn is, what do you need? And they are up on their feet ready to go. And so, so they have this fear that they're going to be forgotten. And why do they have a fear?

Because the thing that they just the thing that really wakes them up in the morning is they just really want to be wanted and cherished and loved by others. As we all should. So may say again, that's a really good desire. It's a really good one. Yeah. Wanting like if you're like I don't want to be loved.

We, you know you should see somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Oh I thank you for saying that. Like it's really important for us to, you know, to, to, to to really underscore the desire is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Right? Yeah. It's right. Right. Absolutely. Sarina, what are your thoughts? Yeah. And just going off of that, like I love how the desire even though sometimes our person how it comes out in our personality or survival mechanisms, those are just the like habits.

But the origin of it is still pure and good. Right. And it's and it's a really helpful tell. Like there's been so many even in just a few types who've gone over you guys have reiterated like when when they can tune into their own needs, when they can tune into their own desires, when they can quiet everybody else's voice, when they can quiet around them, when they can quiet the critic, whatever that tuning in to sell, tuning into the desires, in its purity is really where that that freedom comes.

I think in, in moving towards, towards purpose. I think that's, I think that's that's perfect. Sarina. Yes, yes. Because you can't lock yourself into your pattern and forget that there's a deeper storehouse of desire that is actually more pure. And I think returning that way, you can choose a different, maybe, you know, path than the one you've chosen.

Yeah, that's really good. You know, if we've talked about sort of this tell for each type and also like what can they do to relationally connect. I mean for the two I could observe one thing and I can tell you relatively how healthy or unhealthy a two is. And it's in the moment, I say. And again, it's like all of these like the moment you say and you're like, oh yeah.

And for the two, like when I in front of some two, it sounds like I'm going, would you like to go to hell? Because to them it just sounds like the worst thing ever. And it's as simple as this. Can they be alone? Can they be alone? Do they have the ability to go on a hike in the woods, to sit down by themselves?

You know, to go to a place where they are not trying to pay attention to every other hurting person in the room? What is the person? What is their capacity? Because it's only in being alone that they start to see their own value and they see, oh, my relationships are secure. God sees me, knows me, loves me exactly as I am without me doing anything.

And it's out of that space of going, I'm not giving anything to anybody. And I'm still sitting here, absolutely loved and cherished by the people around me. And so it's that capacity to be alone. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. That's really good. Yeah. Receptivity. That reception of love. Is that's the word. Practicing that. And that's the word. The tool you just said, Jesse, of like get alone and like, like sink in.

Like, what does that actually feel like to be still and and solitude. Know that you're as much loved and solitude as you are in a room full of the people you love most. You know that love is is a transcendent, you know, like I tell my my girls when they, go to school, you know, one of my daughters is has a little more mommy attachment and it's like my love free does not change when you're in or out of the room.

Right? But it's so hard for little kids to get that right with proximity. But my heart as a mom wants her to get that so much to know the truth of that. That like it does not change based off of of presence. It doesn't change off of attitude, you know, it doesn't change off of behavior, you know, like that unconditional love, which I think when she's can tune in to that for themselves but then reflect that without the like, let me help you.

Like, oh my gosh. It's like, oh, thank you for like taking that step back and giving space and some autonomy because that's helpful. And then like an that full on acceptance of unconditional love without attachment is just it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's that moves them from being like one to said, there's a difference between being. Helping and being helpful.

And I was like, oh, that's a good way to put that. You know, it's like, I know the difference now, where the craving is to help, but it may not always be helpful. And so the desire to do that, is a good desire. But ultimately the other desire is to be loved. As as you mentioned, the receptivity is just so grateful.

It's like, I want to be loved, but I'm having a hard time taking it in, right? Because to take it in means I have to be vulnerable and, you know, so, so there's there's a lot there. You may have noticed that our outfits are different, and that's because this is, in fact, a second part, even though we're putting it together in one whole part.

So anyways, thank you, Serena, for pointing that out, because I would have just recorded this, and you folks out there would have been like, wait, what? What just happened here? What happened to their shirts? Not I'm not 100% positive that I actually changed clothes since last time. So yeah. So we'll see. We'll see. Oh, man. That's funny.

We could do a whole thing on that where it's like for some reason, on certain days of the week I wear, I've recorded myself on the Tuesday and then the next Tuesday I have the same shirt on. I'm like, what is that like? Is there. Something a week of clothes and then you recycle, right? Yeah, maybe that's what it is. Yeah.

All right, so let's dive into the type three. The type three core motivation we say, is something to do with value. There's a sense of needing to be perceived as having value and needing to add value to the world. All as a means to actually finally feeling maybe some sense of value and worth. So, yeah. Jessie, what comes up for you?

Yeah. I mean, when I think about the desire I do, the word value comes up just a just a ton. And, and when we think of value, this, this is where the three can get sort of, you know, lost in the weeds a little bit. Because when we think of value, it's more a sense of my life matters.

It's not valued necessarily in terms of accolades and applause. And it's it's a real sense of like when I walk into a room, I, I matter the room that I meant I matter, I matter to the people around me. I matter that my if I have something to share. And then when it's really just at its purest, it's that they know that they possess value apart from performance.

So the desire does not actually get connected so much to performance. Now, I might get connected to I want to contribute. So I want this thing I'm doing to actually have a positive outcome. But it's not about performance, you know, it's not a sense of I need applause or anything. So here's the trick. You know, all the types have a thing that they really, really want and a thing that is a counterfeit, and they have a hard time telling the difference.

And for the three, its success to be valuable and to be successful sound like synonyms. They sound like you're saying the same thing twice. And, and they're not the same thing. Because when we get tied to success, when our desire gets tied to success, all of a sudden performance actually does replace true value. Image ends up replacing authenticity.

Our whole identity becomes about what we achieve. And why are we doing it? Because we've allowed the fear to creep up inside of us, which is I'm worthless, you know, that's the whole thing. The whole thing that drives. When a three starts letting go of the good value and starts taking hold of the counterfeit, it is that fear.

It's that fear of being with us. And who doesn't struggle with that at times? You know, we all struggle with shame in some in some capacity. I don't know. What do you guys think? Yeah. Sorry. Three. I'm a three. I can, like, be like, oh, man, reading the mail. You know, I definitely resonate with the desire of a value and being worthwhile, like being found worthwhile.

And it's not connected to the performance. Like, I love that you made that difference in language because. So oftentimes threes can be pinned as the performer. Right. Like they just want to achieve and do. And they're so good at doing all the things. And it's like yeah, we're working so freaking hard so that we can prove that that we actually bring something meaningful.

Like, I want to be weighty. I want to have that impact, I want substance, and I am terrified that you don't think I do. And so because it's the other thing why this is like the center of the heart centers, right? It's like it is, at least for me as a three. And this is what got me so intensely was like, it is very much within the context of relating to others and being connected to others.

It's like I want to be seen as worthwhile to others because I care so much to to be be with them, to to interact with them, for them to want me around for them to to need me to, to sometimes admire in a pure way, not in an accolade way or performance way, but in a pure way of like, of just impact and like and of goodness.

And so I just, I see how so much the desire and the fear are just a sliver of the same side of a coin, man. It's like why we want to be seen as, as worthy, but also I'm terrified I'm not. So it's like, how do we quiet the fear side and lean into the the belief side of like, okay, I, I come with intrinsic value, like, so how would you say I can quiet that like fear of like being perceived because that's the other fear.

It's like because it lies within the eye of the beholder. It's like perception is so loud to me. So how do I quiet that fear of like, what if I'm being perceived as not valuable? And yeah, where do you think that secret lies? I mean, I think a lot of what you're talking about, I've been thinking a lot about, the role of shame in my own life and about how frequently shame is present inside of me and in the room, and how much it's coloring, an interaction or an interpretation I'm having.

And it is unreal when I stop and actually go, okay, this week I'm really every time that I feel shame, I'm going to name it to myself and be kind to myself about it, but I'm going to name it. I name it so much more. Than I thought I would. I mean, it is just so much more.

Online than I realized it was. And so when you get this part of the three, like there's a reason that a lot of threes are motivational speakers, that a lot of threes or, you know, naturally sort of, you know, I don't want to stereotype all three, but a lot of things are natural behind microphones or they're behind, you know, like presentation or how do we package this in a certain way.

And like there's there's a sense in which it's all for the sake of like, how can I bring betterment into the world? But that secret side is when you get that three, you know, let's just do a really huge stereotype. You get a three, they get the best selling book. That's some motivational speaking book thing and it's doing great.

But the reality is, whatever their formula is actually isn't 100%, but they are so sort of torn up with that shame inside that they keep on sort of feeding the drug to the masses. And then, you know, we say like they drink, you know, they sell their Kool-Aid, but they drink it too. And and so I think that a lot of the work for the three is, it's coming to terms with I'm embarrassed about who I am.

I don't want to be. But the truth is, I am. And if I can name that and then be as kind and compassionate to myself as I am to the people around me, then all of a sudden I can walk into room and I kind of don't care as much what everybody thinks. The people that the people who I need to care about me already do, the people that I'm wanting to impress.

You know, how many people in my life have I tried to impress? And right now, in this moment, I couldn't tell you who they were from two weeks ago. I don't, you know, they are not relevant in my life. So I think that I think the three doing that work of I have a relationship with my shame.

I need to make peace with that. And, and then my belief has always been like, I think that the antidote for shame is delight. I think that just being able to go have compassion for myself, but then also like, you know, I'm not full of myself, but like, I don't want to shame myself. I've got some great things about myself, you know, and being kind to myself.

Yeah, yeah. Well, how does that strike you? Oh, man. I was getting emotional when you were like, naming, because I do think there. So there's such power in naming and recognizing the shame. Yeah. Because it's it is a part of it is a part of me. Right. And and to and to to name it with that compassion.

Because when you put language to like, I have to admit that I'm embarrassed about myself like, oh that then that breaks my heart, right? But it breaks my heart because like, I feel that and and it's like, and I would never want somebody else to feel that. But why? Why do I allow myself to feel that? Right.

And then just being curious with that shame in that narrative in me and and then from there, yeah, I, I agree, like, delighting is such a beautiful antidote because it really kind of it qualifies that intrinsic value that every human has, that every creature has, you know, created thing has and, and that is, that is worthwhile. And so because I do think there can be a little bit of a fear of being prideful or being seen as like, arrogant, right?

Like because sometimes frees do have that stereotype and, and like, you want to be anti-free and be like, I'm not like the other three. I'm not. Or maybe it's just my my stacking that makes me like that. But anyways, yeah, so there is this, like fear of pride too. It's like, oh, if I qualify myself, then is that prideful?

And it's like, I would never say that to somebody else though. So like, yeah. So naming it for myself, naming the shame, sitting with it, being curious and then and then like qualifying the true, the true values, the true and value of myself is like, oh there's some power there. I know we have a lot of stuff we want to cover, but I do want to share this because and I'd be curious, I don't know if this resonates at all.

So I didn't write a whole lot in my book about my own life story, but I did actually choose to write a little bit in the book how we relate about my family of origin, because I have a fair bit of three in me, and it's it's actually fairly simple. I come from a very dysfunctional family, from two different parents who really didn't know how to bond and connect with their children.

They didn't have a bond connect with each other. They also didn't know how to do it with their kids. And so my parents fought all the time. But there was one scenario where my sister and I could always count on the parents to pull themselves together. That was if my sister was playing in the orchestra, if I was on stage getting an award, if we were walking across the stage or behind a microphone suddenly like, Mom and Dad were, you know, got their stuff together and showed up, man, a kid, a kid will get their love fix wherever they can get their love fix.

And if if all of a sudden you're looking out in the audience and for me and I'm going, oh my gosh, mom and dad actually have adoration for me in this moment, that's powerful. That is just so powerful. So, so I also think it's really helpful for threes to sort of think backwards and go like, what were the values that I grew up in?

And, and how did love come to me and what and what forms. And then that allows them to begin to go like, oh wait, what if there's real love and there's synthetic there too, you know, and I can kind of start to pull some of that stuff apart. Yeah, yeah. That's good for all the types to do, man.

Like just to reflect there and like. Yeah. And I love how you're pointing out like there can be synthetic love, but there can also be the, the real thing. And it's just a little bit tangled sometimes. So one doesn't negate the other. And just to like be able to detangle that a bit, I think does help bring a lot of that healing.

And yeah, that distance from, from yourself from that like inner critic or that inner like narrative that just is automatic. Right. Well, part of the part of the challenge also that heart types tend to have two, three and four is, is, that they qualify or they they caveat the, the, the affection, the love that's being communicated to them.

So it's like, well, I earned it. That's the reason why it's coming my way or you know. So out of my head, man, I'm sorry. And and I've had force tell me, you know, they distrust the love that's coming their way from their partner. It's like, well, that he was just. That's because he had just had a gummy before, you know?

And that's what he was. Why he was telling me. I'm literally I'm literally telling you what these are just actual stories, literally people saying that. And I thought to myself, wow, how many ways do you block love coming in here at your in your direction to you? And a big part of the struggle is learning to be receptive.

I think all nine types struggle with receptivity. It's just that's still has an advantage of over anybody else. But it's interesting now love particularly, which is something so important to hard types. That is being that is being shielded because of, you know, their own patterns, you know. And so receptivity is a really tricky thing for hard times.

But it's also really hard for head types to it's just in a different way. And so I think all of us practicing that is, is huge. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I'm not going to give the the core motivation for the force and for. So you you talk what's the what's the core motivation and then the desire. Well. Why don't you say the motivation?

I want to see what your language is. You know, because you sent me that email. I did, so I did. Yeah. Yeah. Because it seems like we're still I'm still working through the stacking, the different stacking of the fours and we're interviewing them. And there are nuances in how they're communicating it. But one of the. Things different. Man. We're all different.

You're so unique. All of you like and and as soon as it's like this is what all other fours are like, well, then there's a distinction that needs to be made. So the thing that was interesting is how the need to be recognized or seen with everything the good, the bad, the ugly, the beauty of all of that stuff to truly be seen as it is so important, but also to be loved within that.

Like, I see all of that in you, and I love and accept the fullness of who you are. And then one of them said even further is if you can even draw the beauty out, if you can see that in me, because I see that in other people. And that's something that I, I would appreciate being done for me.

So that tends to be how I'm seeing currently. The the core of what I'm hearing is the core motivation for the for. So talk to me my friends. The four. Yeah. So the desire for the for the classic term would just be to be authentic. You know, the desire of, I don't have any pretense. I'm not showing up and sort of having to put a face on things.

I'm not having to do a dog and pony show to, you know, to somehow win your approval. But I'm accepted for who I truly am. But it's not just accepted to your point. It is this sense of I'm seeing I'm accepted and I'm wanted. It's sort of this stacking sort of thing where it's like you perceive the truth of who I am, you accept me as I am.

But it's not just sort of a, you know, a begrudging acceptance. It's a and I love what I found like. And so there's a, there's a chosen this I mean, there's a reason that a lot of fours are referred to as the romantics, and there's a sense in which there's a longing and a desire for somebody else to somehow out of the crowd, they they've seen us.

They see that we are special. We're unique to, you know, we have a unique place in their life. The the problem is we get real tripped up around the difference between authenticity and differentiation. We are like differentiation addicts, like one of the funniest things. If you ever have the opportunity to go to some kind of any scenario and there's a bunch of fours next to each other, and somehow they get paired together for like a breakout session or something.

They will do. They're like magnets, like D, like just the magnets. When the magnets are like, the polarization is all off and they're just sort of flipping all of because every four in the group is going, but how am I unique from this person and this person? I'm not like them. I'm not like them. But we're not like this.

I don't really belong like it's and it's just this relentless, need to be a fully unique and fully unique is a false endeavor, because, it assumes the idea that full uniqueness is the greatest beauty, and that's actually not true. Oh, there's a there's a, there's beauty inside many, many very common. If I go outside and I look at the trees in my backyard, these trees exist.

There's plenty of these countries all over the place. These trees are beautiful. There are no more beautiful than you know. So I think that the journey for the four is also to recognize like. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I can go to like, the hole in the wall place for dinner that nobody's ever heard of. And that's awesome. I can kind of also go to Chili's.

That's okay. Like, you know, it's okay to go and have great company and laugh with your friends and enjoy a margarita and, you know, and you're just, like, in a very unimpressive chain. That's totally fine. So, so different all of a sudden becomes the thing where it's it's different is better. And if different is better than I need to always be different.

And now all of a sudden, I'm feeding my envy, because if somebody else has something that I perceive that I should have or that I should want, or that somehow on the assembly line, you know, as God was making all of us, he left parts out of me that all the rest of you somehow got built with.

So all this differentiation stuff just gets stirred up and it's a battle. Then all of a sudden between, we can't let go of our past pain because it makes us unique, but also we don't want to be tied to it. So we're just always in this very, yeah, longing, restless state. That is, we want a vacation from ourselves.

Our loved ones want a vacation from us. It's just it's there's so much going on all the time. And so Starfire does become. I'm just average and ordinary. Yeah. There's nothing. There's nothing special about me. I'm just like everybody else. In fact, I'm so average and ordinary that I'm actually kind of just forgettable and all that stuff is shame. That's all shame stuff, you know?

That's all embarrassment stuff. Yeah. Wow. So. Yeah. So desire is I want to be seen seeing, accepted and celebrated for who I am. Yeah, that's very helpful. I love how the connection of the piece is there. The, talk about the desire of the fourth. Then what is the core desire? We have a very like this is before not not always.

If a for is relatively healthy, they're great conversationalists because we just love authenticity. And let me say conversely, we don't do well with a lot of BS. Like if there's a if there's some kind of scenario where we're socializing and we can tell somebody sort of selling us on the line, I mean, the four is just like, I'm out.

Like, that's it. And what that allows is the gift that that brings is, let's say you've got a two that is so compulsive. You know, they're doing stuff for everybody all the time. They can't stop or you get the three. That is, I'm worried about other people think the four showing up and being like, hey, how about we all just be who we are, you know?

And that's there's a gift within that. We say, like I've said before, like in the church, like, if if seven sort of, bring a lot of songs of joy to the church, like fours bring songs of lament. And a lot of fours need to go on the journey of learning how to sing songs of joy. We get a little too addicted to our sadness.

But, But I think in our heart, it is a real desire. I somehow want to live in to who I meant to be, who I'm, who I really am. I don't want to have to disown parts of me. And I hope that the people that matter to me will see that, accept that and celebrate that. The word bridge keeps coming up every time I hear you talk.

So there's something you're bridging. It feels to me. And, I've even thought of it from a spiritual standpoint or from a Christian perspective of like, you know, that that's a lot of what we see in the life of Jesus is ultimately becoming the bridge between, you know, what is in the world and what could be. And, and so I've asked for is, is like, is that something that you want to do is to be a bridge?

In what way does that show up? And that brings out seems like it brings out your best, particularly in the creative space. Like this. The creative piece that I want to bring to the world. And this is counteracting something that's ugly or not complete in the world, and becoming the bridge to that. I'm curious as to you're so much in that world yourself, Jesse.

So I'm just curious about like how that lands for you around the the bridge concept. Yeah, I, I think there are some Fords that are really gifted with it. And I do think that I have some of that like, you know, my occupation is I'm a, I'm a journalist and producer, but really in, in the old world, I would just be called a storyteller and storytellers.

And at the heart of it is I am somehow connecting this story to your life and somehow bringing these two worlds together. And if you know, if I'm telling a story that just sort of like it falls flat and it doesn't, it doesn't draw anything out of you and it doesn't ask anything of you, and it doesn't take you somewhere like that.

I failed to build a bridge. And so and if you think about artists in general, the lyrics that people are writing, the movies that they make, and not all fours are sort of classical artists, but the. But there is something to be said for I want to make a thing that simultaneously represents me, but also it's giving voice to, you know, a universal experience that a lot of us are having.

Well, I was going to say something that, see, it's more with the four wing three, but I see a plenty with the for wing five two. Yeah. This sort of like this thing of like, you know, I want everybody to have a seat at the table. I want that to be there. Like they used that with me.

That's where I learned it from listening to them say, forge, we'd never met each other. Say, yeah, I really want to give. For me, it feels like a room at the table, like I'm giving them that. And it's that permission to like you also can come and in your full the fullness of who you are, the, the authentic self and like, yeah, it's it's just so there's a lot of complexity to the floor, which I think is really.

Which fine with. We're fine with that's what we that's what we're going for. And I would say this to, you know, you know, I'm a self pressed for and work. We're kind of, the other types of fours do tend to be able to connect into empathy a little bit faster and be able to sort of connect into attunement a little bit faster.

A lot of the self prayers, because it kind of comes from there. Like, I got to take care of myself. Like our nickname, literally the self self-professed for is like the pack mule. Like, we just kind of go, like, I'll take more on, you know, and that can bleed over into our perception of others. We think that we think that other people should be the same way.

Like, why are you wanting so much? You know, so it is it's weird. Counter counter type, you know, where these other forms are like, I'm so sorry, you're paying the counter. You know, the the counter type for myself can sometimes be like, stop whining, get it together. You know? Yeah, suck it up. And really, what that is, is that's my I say that to myself.

Right. And so I'm just broadcasting it to other people because that's how I talk to myself. Yeah. And so yeah. So it's been a real journey, if you ask my wife, number one thing, if she were here and whenever one thing I've grown in the last five years, she would tell you was empathy. It just took me a long time.

But that empathy had to start with. I had to be a lot kinder to myself. I didn't know how to be kind to other people in some scenarios. So yeah, yeah. It's good for people to hear this because there's a lot of stereotypes around for where they are. You know, they're all empathetic, bleeding heart people, you know, and, but not the force.

I've known quite a few self Perez force. I stop in my experience with them. So it's been more of that, like what you're describing, long suffering as it's been termed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right. I'm wondering, you know, just taking a little quick toll of a tally of, like, the force in my life in, in my effort to want to be good, a good friend, to be in good relationship with them.

There is this element where fours are so good at, at a, you know, you can just you can show up and nothing surprises them, right. Like there's this aspect where they invite your vulnerability, your authenticity. They give you the stage to do that. Right. And sometimes they can be reciprocal and share the same. But often it can be like there is that guard there is that like and I don't know if it's because of that need to be different where it's like oftentimes in relationships, we're looking for that touch point where we can be relatable, right.

Like, oh, you like that same movie as I do, or you like this kind of music to or like, and then there's a connection. So like with force because of that differentiation that need to be to be different sometimes. Like how like I want to be a good friend to my force. I want them to really feel like to receive the love and like the interest that I genuinely have for them.

But I don't want to squash like the fact that they are unique and. But is it through admiration? Because I feel like that's that's me three three and it you know, they're not looking for my admiration as. Oh man, you're so creative. You're so like whatever, you know or it's not like the similarity thing to sometimes I think can miss.

It's like, oh, I feel the same way or whatever. There's a certain level of connection, but it's not. They still are quick sometimes to be like, but I feel it different like or I feel it deeper like or something. Or is it like this like they just want, is it a need to be wanted? Like, oh man, you see that so differently or you feel it so specially that like that's really interesting to me.

Like is it interest is like so. I have an answer and I want to see what Jesse says. No, no, no, I want to know what Joel is going to say. And then I can tell him he's wrong. So so we go. Exactly. You're going to differentiate from my. And I'm not like that at all. In fact, I'm leaving.

Right. So we do this thing every all three centers of intelligence, they want alignment in their through their particular center. So hard types on alignment. Through the heart center. The way you're looking for connection and alignment is, is going to be different than the four. So I think what happens for the for a lot of the four is, is I don't want you agreeing or relating to everything I'm saying.

That's not real. But I do want you to understanding. And so can you hold space for me to be who I am and and find interest in that and, and actually find delight in that, find love in that. And but not that you're the same way. Is so that's, that's the one thing I've learned in terms of coaching fours and relating to them friends, family members, is that's been more effective than when I used to do a lot of that over relating kind of thing, like, oh yeah, me too.

Well, that comes up because then I find that would that they, I feel like that's even more of a pulling back or a pull it or an attempt to differentiate. Maybe I'm not understanding them, I think is what might be happening. We're we're a tricky beast. Because we can get into a space in which we sort of become unopposed because in fact, the more that you try to sort of attuned to us, the more that we're just not having it.

And I mean, you could literally, man, we could literally you could sit there like, you know, Saint Joseph and listen for an entire hour test, pour heart out. And then you could say it back to us verbatim, and we'll go and we'll go. That's not it. You don't understand. You don't get it. Oh my God. And, and so in those situations, the best, the best thing to offer is, well, I'm sorry that, you know, it doesn't feel like I understand you.

I really want to, because you really mattered to me. And, you know, if you think of something else you want to share with me, I'm here anytime you want. So there's a sense in which the friend plants themselves and goes, I'm stable. And standing here, I'm available anytime you want. You are allowed to go away and, you know, think more or contemplate or soak or be pissed or whatever it is.

And I will be here when you come back. And there's a real comforting thing that can happen for the for because it communicates. I know that you're writing all these waves. I just want you. I'm right here with you. So whatever happens, we're good. And, But I do it for myself. Do appreciate. I mean, I think we all do, but, like, good questions.

And then I do appreciate it when people attempt to say back to me, so are you saying x, y, z? Is that is that what I'm hearing? It just makes me feel her. It doesn't mean that they're going to get it right. And if I'm in a, you know, cantankerous mood where I'm asleep to myself and I can't be at peace, and, you know, hopefully the other person has learned enough to go, okay, you know, and they don't they don't ruffle their feathers.

They just go, okay, and I'll come back later. So yeah, but if you are folks that are like, they're doing a great job listening, but then when you're asking questions and they're resisting, consider asking a more pointed question like, just see if you can just dial it in so it's not quite as broad and go like maybe let's try touching this, this specific thing and then kind of see what happens. Good advice.

Let's talk about the five. So we're going to move into the head center five six and seven. So type fives are the these folks that from a core motivation standpoint feel a lot of scarcity. The scarcity is a heart scarcity. It's important to differentiate that I'm kind of tired of the stereotypes of fives because we coach and talk to hunt to so many of them.

I mean, it's a very variety. The thing that is consistent about them, they're very different based on instincts. But the thing that is consistent is this internal heart sense of scarcity. And so they're of abundance in the head center scarcity in the heart center. And the body center is a mix. So because of that there's a need to resource themselves.

And they resource themselves through the space. That actually feels pretty good. They feel competent in the head center. So the head center is like, that's where I'm going to learn. I'm going to absorb knowledge, but not just knowledge. I want to synthesize it so that I understand the wisdom that's underneath that. So understand how things work, and then maybe I'll have enough to, to engage.

So that's what's going on for the five in terms of core motivation. So Jesse what what do you know about the core motivation and then also the desire? Well, you know, when I think about the desire, it's a sense of, I want to know I have what it takes. And by that, it's not so much like I walk into every situation.

I'm the boss, but it's a sense of, I want to be able to meet the demands of life with wisdom. There are financial demands that are placed on me. Relational demands that are placed on me. There's a thousand moving parts in this world. So that's also where you'll see some fives, sort of, they'll sort of like create a home base that's relatively smaller because they can feel like they can manage that more than sort of navigating all the parts of the world.

But it's a sense of I want to be competent, which is, is that I want to be incompetent. I don't want to be taken advantage of. I don't want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to be put into situations where I feel lost and I feel scared. I want to be able to go into the situation and know what to do and know how to behave.

And and so if you think about it almost as a universal desire, it would be all of our desire, to have the knowledge and the skills and the wisdom to live the life that we have. And I think that in a lot of ways, that's kind of what the the five is after, but they end up settling for knowledge and they and you sort of see this in the like, you know, like if you, if I was like, do you want to learn how to dance?

Like you would be like, oh yeah, let's go take like dance classes, you know, but like, a lot of fives would be like, I will go watch YouTube videos about dancing and now I know how to dance. And that's it's a cognitive thing because it's almost a sense of I want to use as few of my own resources as required, while also achieving the thing, because it's going back to that sense of we do not live in a world of abundance.

We live in a world of scarcity and this world of scarcity. You know, if you sort of dial it up, it's like suckers get taken advantage of, you know, and they end up poor and they end up, you know, in situations where they look like idiots or whatever. And so, so there's a sense in which everything can end up revolving around this addiction.

It's like this pattern of thought that they can't get out of their head, which is everything is calculated through resources. So if you want time for me, if you want time for me, like you are taking from my bank, and I have to think about, do I even have that to give you? Because if I give this to you, then tomorrow.

What's that going to mean? So it becomes sort of, you know, if you think of like, you know, the like the banker goblins and like Harry Potter, you know, they're all sitting around and they're just like every little thing, like, that's kind of where the five goes mentally. And and that becomes really, really difficult because what they really also want is they really want to be connected to other people.

They don't want to be lonely, they don't want to be cut off. And in fact, from their perspective, a lot of the things they're doing is like doing it so that we can all get through this thing together, you know? But, but it becomes this, this challenge. So, so a lot of fives just become very, very resource addicted.

But that's the fear stuff driving underneath that. If you really are looking for the, the, the beauty, it's like, I just want to be competent. I just want to have the wisdom and the skills and the resources and the knowledge to live the life that I have. Yeah, I would say that there to add to that is that their desires to be useful, that's one of their words that they use a lot is like, I do want to be useful.

So it's this in understand usefulness from the standpoint of it's close to being helpful in the as the two in the world that I inhabit, the the world of the Enneagram, we say that the five goes to the two for the heart center as well as to the eight, and that has been something that they really tune into when they're like, that is true.

That is where the compassion rises, where I desire to really be helpful. But usefulness feels a little bit more accessible as a term so useful to people. I want to, boy, to feel useless is a horrible feeling for the five. So there's a desire to be useful. But as you're saying, it is that battle with like, scarcity peace.

Not all fives relate to the other fives in the sense that some fives actually find people to be energizing. But it's it's not without costs. They're aware of that thing of, like, I'm pouring myself in. I'm ginning up energy through my through my interactions with people, and that's working. But then it's like I have to pull back and and recharge the batteries again.

And even though that ginned up energy is still the sense of like, I, I, I have to go back to that. So these existential needs and that's why I call them existential needs. It's because it's really no rational logical source to them. It's like we're trying to figure out why is it there? Who knows? None of us know. They just are.

And so that sense of scarcity is there, for the five, what would you say is a helpful moving forward for the five in terms of how do I become more useful? How do I be useful? But maybe not just all through the head center and the, and driven by that sense of scarcity, how do I how do I grow into that to being more useful and being more connected to people?

So I've told this story a lot, but like one of my favorite, like ninja type five moves that I've ever seen that I thought was just incredible. A long time ago. Bunch of us are going out for dinner. It's a celebration for a friend's event, so there's maybe 15 of us sitting around a table. We're at a restaurant, and so a whole bunch of us.

And it's typical. You're in a restaurant, everybody's sort of yelling across the table and having conversation, and there's an interior in five, and he's literally just leading to the person next to me, like, so how's work going? How's your wife? Oh, has your daughter doing like, it's just a very quiet conversation. The rest of us are being very rambunctious.

So we get to the end and one of us goes like, hey, we'll we'll take the bill. And the waitress goes, oh, yeah, he already paid it. And we look over in our five friend has left on and out. Like he just sort of said goodbye to the two people next to him. And he says, so good to see you guys. And then he left.

But he had paid for all of us before he went, wow. And so it was simultaneously sort of a. Generous. Guys, I'm here with you all. You all matter to me? Yes. And it's a guy that knows I have my social limits and I. I can't do all this the rest of the night. So even things like when a five shows up to an event that somebody else's communicated to them like this matters to me.

I've got this thing going on. Would you show up for in the five shows up? Like, you know, it's a lot of it can be small touches. Like nobody's asking the five to, like, get out on the dance floor in the center of the crowd and do all the things, you know, unless that's your jam, then that's great too.

But, but it's a lot of like the five going, yes, my Sherlock Holmes mind palace is amazing and incredible. But also, I live in a world that's tactile. How can I show love to the people around me in ways that, if it were caught on video, is measurable? It's not just sort of this concept of love. It is it's embodied actions. Yes. Yes.

100%, 100%. Very good. Very, very good. Yeah. That's where the the biggest challenge for for fives that I've coached is moving out of living up here as you're describing living this is the world. And then like, okay, but this is also the world. And then also this is the world, you know, the move, the body itself, the movement of the body.

And it's very difficult for them, understandably, because they don't feel the scarcity in their head center, you know, they feel they feel the abundance there, they feel scarcity elsewhere. So but that's where it's like, and there's more there's more that, you know, there's more energy, there's more resource. But it it comes from the place you don't feel you have a resource.

And that's in the. Okay, let me give one more. Let me give one more type five story for you. So, very well known pastor and author, Tim Keller. I saw him when he was on his tour for his second book called Counterfeit Gods, and there was a Q and A, as he often was known for hosting. And this is a very little church here in I live in Louisville, Kentucky, very little church. He's just coming through town.

So we get to the Q&A and somebody says, okay, you're sitting here and you're talking to us about all these false idols. What do you struggle with? And he goes, and he doesn't miss a beat. He goes, this right now. And he goes, I wake up every day and I'm scared that somebody's going to ask me a question that I don't have the answer to.

Yeah. So he goes, so I always feel like I need to go by that next book. I need to read about that next thing, because I have to be ready for these moments. And after Tim Keller died a couple of years ago, he died from cancer. All these stories came out. I mean, just you can you can Google.

I mean, they're everywhere of some small town pastor who's got a congregation of 50 folks phone rings, and it's Tim Keller calling from New York City. And they said and he sat on the phone with me for an entire hour just asking me how things are going and wanting to know if there's anything that he could do to help.

And there were 100 stories of that and you can find on the internet. So again, it's a guy going, I am who I am and I've got these particular skills. I'm not going to hoard them. I want to give them away. And so is he going to get on a plane and travel to every single person? No, but he could pick up a phone and he could call and chat with somebody.

So I think that that's a really great example of being honest about the fear and then doing tactile things to show community and generosity to other people. Yeah, yeah. Really good. That's really good. Yeah, there's a lot of people that. So it surprises people when they hear, like Tim Keller. Turns out to be a five. I mean, it's obvious to those of us who are in the world of the Andy Graham.

He's very five. But then there are people like, Neil deGrasse Tyson who I'm pretty convinced as a five. Probably similar instinct stacking to Tim Keller, but he was asked the question on an interview. And I'm going to get this, you know, I'm not quoting it, but he said something to the effect when he was asked, were you write books?

You know, you're always on TV, you're always on YouTube, you're always doing these interviews. And do you love it? Do you love it? And it was the interesting response. It was like, I, I had to write these books because there weren't good books for kids on science and I and so there's this obligation, this thing of like, I must do this thing and but then admitting, like, I would just be happy to be at home reading like it was this, like, I'm admitting that this is what's going on, but I'm at the same time I'm, I'm I recognize that there's a need and I, I, I want to fulfill that need. Yes.

All right. Very cool. Type six core motivation for the six. This is the one we've tested many, many times across all variations of sixes. And they all agree with this definition of their motivation, which is to feel secure by being supported. It's a simple math equation that's entirely it for them. It's like I fear and I'm married to six, so I can always ask questions of her.

I'm also married to a six. Say, all right, there you go. So you know this. It's why you and I are stable human beings and not living. Rex walking around. 100%. 100%, I told her. I told my wife that yesterday. Yeah. I, I owe everything to to to her. Absolutely. But it was that thing of like, I'm concerned that I'm alone in my thoughts and I'm alone in my fears, and that's the sort of thing underneath that's oftentimes what they're dealing with.

And so to have someone who can track with their thoughts, who can be there inside their concerns with them, not solving them, that's that. Don't enjoy that. Even though I still trip up and do that, try to solve the problem my wife is bringing to me. But it's not that she wants me to solve the problem. She wants me to track with her thinking.

She wants me to see that she can. You know that she's capable, that she's competent, and to cheerleader in a sense that she can do this. So this is the thing that's underneath is like, I'm scared in. I'm alone in my fears. Not the thing that I'm scared of. It's that I'm alone. This is the thing that people miss all the time with sixes.

It's like, oh, you're just feared of a lot of things. It's like, yeah, but they still manage to move forward towards a lot of that stuff. It's that their fear, fearing that they're alone in that process, and that's the pain that they feel. That's why we say it's support that matters a lot to them. To feel that sense of security since you're married to is six.

I mean, what do you what are you observing there? And does that track also with what you know of her? I love it. I mean, if she were here right now, she pushed me out of the way so she could jump in the conversation, you know, because she she would just buy in so much. Yeah. I mean, the number of times that I've heard, you know, my wife expressed like, you know, I just don't know what I'm going to do one day if you die first and the kids, you know, grow up and then I'm by myself, I mean, just.

And I'm going, like, at the time, I'm like, we're 28. Like, I don't know exactly like why we're having this conversation, but like, you know, it is that it's a desire for that security and, and the presence of others, the support of others. You know, when my wife and I started dating, she revealed to me, and I really I thought it was a joke.

I started laughing, which was not in my favor. She was like, I was like, oh, what's your favorite show? And of course, like, mine's like some weird art house, whatever that nobody's heard of because, you know, the potential for stuff. And she's like, oh, I love full House. And I thought she was just to me, growing up, I'm like, the cheesiest thing ever.

Yeah, it was just as cheesy as could be. Yeah. Well, now we've been married all these years. You know, she loves This Is Us and she loves parenthood. And she loves the whole house. And she loves, you know, Dan, in real life, she loves any any of these movies that are a community of people. She's like, they're hobbits at heart.

You know? They're just like these really? Well, like these people that just like, they want to be as faithful and as reliable as they can be. Reliability as they are super power. Oh, yeah. And they their desire is for a sense of safety and security. But it's, it's I think there's another statute which is also like, I don't want to just be safe.

They have a desire to trust. And that's the thing that that is such an ache inside of that. So true. Because the question is always coming up, can I trust you? You know, it's almost like you remember, like whatever the that book is like, are you my mommy? Are you my mommy? You know, like, they're like, were the animal goes around trying to figure out which.

And there's that for a lot of sixes that can I trust you, can I trust you, can I trust you? Yeah. And unfortunately, it's not a permanent decision. It's. Can I trust you in these five minutes? And then, sadly, we will have to revisit this in five minutes from now. So, So it's a real desire to be safe.

A real desire to be secure. A desire to not only trust other people and trust God. No one understands that the six trusts themselves the least, right? Like they will oscillate between being the most like, trust, competent as all get out. Like move aside. I will do the heart surgery myself, you know, like. And then the moment it's in their hand, they're going.

I've made a terrible decision. Did I make the right decision? Maybe I shouldn't have been doing this. Yeah. And they, they they live in a real tough place of exhaustion. So, so the thing for the six is that they have a desire for security, they settle for safety. And maybe you could even say, like, safety protocols or the most conservative safety or I'm not sure what word you want to reach for, but there's a there's a sense in which I can be secure in a relationship.

I can be secure going out in the world knowing that within my security, I have the ability to take calculated risks that I can do that's different than safety, which is what are all the possible things that could go wrong. And I need to predict those things. And then, you know, we got to litigate ourselves against those things.

So the hypervigilance, the constant preparation, the worst case thinking, the suspicion, and then of course, that turns into projection, you know, which is like whatever they're feeling in here. This is like a really nerdy reference, and not everybody gets it because people don't remember it in the movie. Batman Begins, there's a scene in which, Scarecrow drugs the city and in drugging the city, what happens is that when Batman shows up to help, they look up and they don't see Batman.

They see this demonic figure, and they're terrified of him. But it's the toxins that are doing that that's projection. They can't. It's the six can't see the other person or the dynamics or even themselves, you know, in a way that is, unbiased. It just gets tainted by all that fear. So, yeah. So I always say that it's I love, I love though, that it's not just secure, but it's security plus, support.

I think that that's spot on. Spot on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you said the desire to trust. I think that's so good because it's it's you can see the positive projection that takes place when it comes to people they do trust or systems they trust, which structures they trust. And then conversely, significant amount of, you know, projection and the other direction negative projection.

And so there is a desire to trust. How would you say they can grow in, in that desire to trust? Well, I think I think there's a difference. I think that sixes are prone towards a black and white thinking, which is something is either 100% safe or it's unsafe. Yeah. And that's that's just not really how the the world operates.

I cannot say that if I get in my car that it's 100% safe, or that I will 100% not get hit by another, or that I won't hit somebody, I just can't say that. So I think the thing that I, you know, know any grim type is more courageous than the six. Like six. Oh, you think courage six is it man?

They are their the pinnacle because they get up, they see all the crazy things that could happen. They keep going for it anyway. But when they think about trust, I think it's really important that, and this is, this is where it gets tricky because I don't want to perpetuate self-doubt. But I do think it's valuable for the six to go.

But what if I'm wrong? But only when it's sort of in a I'm seeing really good effort, like genuine effort by this other person to meet me where I am to do the best that they can. And I, in the relentless hypervigilance, just will not let them, you know, come into the circle of trust. I think those are moments where the person can go like, you know what, if I'm wrong?

I think that this has been really helpful. My wife has done this a lot. She's introduced the language of calculated risk that's become sort of a part of her vernacular. And I think that that has been really helpful for her because she's able to go, are there risks? Yes. Okay. But on the scale of all things, that's it all.

Yeah. Are the benefits so good? And is the risk low enough that this is worth doing. And she can go. Yep. And then all of a sudden she doesn't feel like she's being laissez faire and feel like she's just sort of ignoring safety, but it becomes something that, she's able to really take all those, let's see all the outcomes, and she's able to go, let's lay it on the table and go.

Calculated risk. This is the best outcome. Let's do it. Yeah I've actually thought a lot about that one. What you just mentioned there is like can you rank this because not everything's 100% in likelihood, you know, so can you rank them. But I like that the scale of the way you're doing it I think makes a lot of sense.

All right. Type seven core motivation. Sarina, you're married to one as well. Type seven score motivation is to, be satiated. So I'm going to language it differently than what's out there being seven. I think there's a lot of mistakes that people make about seven. Oh, they just want to be positive and upbeat and avoid pain. It's like, that's too easy.

It's something deeper. It's more of this, this, this hunger that's happening deep down inside. You know what the hunger is for? Its for nurture. And that's the thing that sevens universally, when they wake up, they say, yeah, that's the one I didn't feel I ever got. Even if they were, it's just somehow they weren't capable of taking it.

And so there's this like real hunger for for nurture. And it gets replaced with a whole lot of things like pleasure, like travel, like interesting ideas. It, it there's all sorts of things with sevens laugh when we get together and we say, yeah, you know, I've been asked if I'm addicted to anything and I know what the other sevens are going to say.

We all laughed. We know where we're going with this. It's like, are you kidding? One thing. No, it's like I'm addicted to anything. In fact, I'm addicted to stimulation. So that's the fundamentally what keeps the system, moving towards positivity. It's that stimulate. We train anxiety and excitement. Apparently they function in the same part of the brain. It's it's just that's what we're doing.

We're doing with the six does, but we just flip it to the positive and, and and make it excitement as a means to not feeling that hunger all the time, to not feeling that lack of nurture. So that's, the to me, the core motivation of the seven is to satiate that, that hunger for nurture. Satiate is a good word because one of the things I've been thinking about lately, you know, I, I've been in a couple different workshops recently, just about the nervous system and, you know, talking about this idea of being, seen safe, secure.

And, and then the fourth one is soothed and a lot of of what you're talking about, when I think about a lot of the work that a lot of sevens do, I worked at a homeless shelter for nine years. Overwhelmingly, the men that we worked with would have been Enneagram Sevens, really. And they were for me and vicious and, you know, but and my, my wife, who does a lot of work in, you know, mental health field, she's convinced a lot of these guys were probably Add as children and just were never diagnosed.

And then they began to seek it out naturally in other ways. And so but I think that that soothed peace is so central to a lot of what sevens are going for. And we have to think about it as soothed, meaning that it's if you think about it, a brain level. The brains are just searching. I mean, it's just sort of like I'm hungry and I'm hungry and I'm hungry.

So the soothing is like, I it's almost like I just want the noise to kind of stop all the time. And so anyways, I like satiated a lot. I think that's a really, really helpful word. And that's going to get connected to the ideas of, of joy, which is going to have this idea of fulfillment, this idea of, bliss, but not bliss in sort of a I feel nothing way.

It's the opposite. I feel everything, I feel the fullness of things. That's right. And, and so as a result of all that, there's a satisfaction. So there's a satisfaction that kind of comes up. But of course, it gets confused for pleasure. And this idea that the ultimate purpose of life is pleasure, that's the great desire that drives.

And then you sort of get into this sort of hedonistic mentality. And then but what happens within that is then all of a sudden, anything that is not pleasurable, anything that is hard, anything that is demanding, anything that is unresolved, you know, all of a sudden all of that becomes Kryptonite. It's like, I can't be around any of that stuff. So.

So seven when they're not in a good place, that the most sensitive to pain of any of the types on the Indian. Graham. So, you know, you kick me in the toe and it's going to hurt you kick a seven to the toe and they're like, I can't believe life did this to me, you know? And so, there's just a sensitivity to pain.

And the only way to deal with that sensitivity of the pain is I need the next thing. It's always the next thing. So what is the next experience? And the anticipation is always better than the experience. So the sevens addiction becomes that anticipation of like, you know, dream about the vacation, but then go on the vacation. But actually they're already driven about the next vacation.

And so it's that always next thing. Avoiding pain turns into gluttony. And it's a basic fear of, I'm going to get trapped in pain. I don't who wants to be in pain? I don't want to be in pain. And so therefore, I don't want to miss out on something that could appease my brain and appease my heart and let me just settle and be, So, yeah, I don't know.

How does that strike you? Yeah. It's, it's all very true. And I think it shows up very differently from, you know, I want to I always have to caveat this because there's sevens out there who are like, I don't I don't do that. I'm, you know, I work hard all day. I, I complete tasks, I'm very reliable.

People can depend on me. It's like, yeah, that's not where it shows up for, for for that seven. It shows up somewhere else. So it's but all of it is very true. All of it is that fear of being trapped. And there is a desire for feeling satiated. I mean, there's a desire for joy. There's an intuition around that optimal future kind of thing.

It's like, I believe in that, and I believe that that's possible. And the desires to move toward that, driven by the that pain, driven by the fear, driven by the that core need. Yeah. It turns into everything you just mentioned. And that's fascinating. I didn't know that, that that homeless population tended to be, at least from your experience, tended to be a lot of.

My my anecdotal experience was years. I saw hundreds of people, and I did see patterns over and over. Yeah. And that's interesting to, you know, maybe this is a, you know, a sidebar. But like, there are certain things that some of us in life live with, and it does tend to affect our sort of any orientations, you know, those of us that, you know, if you really struggle with depression doesn't mean you're a four, but you're going to have a lot of four.

You know, if you struggle with some level of an addiction, there's a good chance you have a lot of seven. If you struggle with OCD, there's a good chance you're going to have a lot of one. And so there are these sort of things that show up. And so, so with the seven, you know. Yeah. In our context, yeah, we, I mean, did just over and over and over again.

That's like, that's a real I'm learning something new that's that's fascinating to me. Now I want to know like more about that because there's something to I've joked with my wife, if it wasn't for you, I would be living in a van down by the river. There's no question, because I'm, you know, not all sevens would play.

Sevens would succeed and succeed at the highest levels. But it's it's the orientation of my type, plus my instinct stacking that would lead me to this sort of avoidance of the things that are painful in pursuit of the pleasure. And that means anything that comes as a weight of responsibility, that then I just shirk that. Right. So that leads to, you know, I've thought about homeless people like, yeah, they actually have a pretty decent life.

Like, it's, other than I mean, they just have to find food and. All these things being horrible. But yeah, there are some. I mean, this freedom though, right? That's like, I don't have to answer to anybody but myself. And that is the worst form to me. I don't envy that at all. But it's like I can understand why that could lead them to that ultimate sense of freedom.

Autonomy. Yeah. You know. Yeah, yeah. And and then you throw on top of it. And in that particular scenario you throw on top. The majority of them had profound trauma as children. Yes. And and so you take this profound, I mean, pain that many of us can't understand. And then you also put on top of that are true sensitivity to pain.

And then you put on top of that in many cases, not all in many cases undiagnosed. And I mean, you're just creating a formula, you know, that's true. And so, so yeah, which is why the work of the seven is I mean, it's sobriety. I mean, it's just like it literally maps, you know, it's like, 12 step, you know, language.

And so, It's confronting the pain. So this is what I, I know my path. I know I have to do it when I fall off. I also see the effects immediately. It's like deal and confront the thing that you're avoiding right now. So one of my practices is to focus in on what's coming up in my system right now.

I allow it to come up, and sometimes it's sadness, sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's frustration, sometimes it's anxiety. It's different things. But to allow it to surface and to be present to it, Is it? I'd also have to solve it. That's the thing that's hard for us. Me as a head type is like, solve it, solve it, solve it, fix of it.

It's like, no, I don't have to solve it. I just have to be present to it. And that tends to quite the hunger a little bit. So the hunger doesn't drive the rest of the day. Anything else you would say about the seven in terms of accessing, you know, moving towards their desire? Their desire is not a bad thing to want joy.

It's not a bad thing to want, you know, to be satiated. Well, what I would say is this there's, don't believe the lie that satiation is going to come through either escaping or indulging. That man enjoyed great experiences 100%. Know what it's saying. Don't. But I think about there are two different sevens that have been very close to and you know, both of them had to do different work.

One of them had to confront, you know, a lot of hurt in his life. You know, he was 150 pounds overweight and that had come through his sort of, you know, medicating himself. And as he confronted it, that weight fell away. And then another friend of mine, it's fascinating. It's such a non seven thing to do. He went out and he bought a jacket and he bought a pair of boots, and he put him by the front door and he said Monday through Friday I'm going to get up.

And at 730 in the morning I'm going to walk out the door and I'm going to walk for 25 minutes that way, turn around and come 25 minutes back. And I'm just going to I'm not taking a stereo. I'm not taking like, you know, headphones. I'm just going to pray and I'm going to walk and I'm going to turn around and come back home.

And he did it for a year. And he simultaneously became continue to be one of the people you love being around, because he brings so much life into the room. But he had this sober wisdom that he had never had before. Yeah, because it wasn't this sort of out of control. Yes. You know, whatever. Yes. It was not that it was.

It was, you know, enjoy life, but also suddenly you had this capacity where I could talk about hard things. He didn't flinch. He could sit with me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. That's so good. The last thing I want to say is it's. I've said to Seven's metabolize. Don't consume. It's a big difference. If you can metabolize, then you won't need to consume.

You're not made to to to live in abstinence. Absence is a great place. I fast now I do fasts because it's really good for me. It's really, really good. Fast the thing you need to fast, but then come back to the pleasure of, of of taking in because that's what you're made for, taking life but metabolize it.

That means be present to it. That means allow it to make its way in all the way through. So you're fully experiencing it. Otherwise, man, we are just what? It's just consuming. Busy. Busy. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, because I'm married to a seven in their desire and hunger for nurturing. Like, how do how do I meet that in a way that's not.

Feeding the beast. Exactly, exactly. That's not just like going along with interest. Going along like that happens. And it's fun, but like the nurturing that that really speaks to like this deeper part, this like, yeah, heart center part. Right. That's really there. And it's like, how do how do I access that when there is a lot of like other things that are, I don't want to say distracting, but easier ramps to just keep attention, you know, keep like surface connection kind of.

But like, how do I meet that nurturing need in a non, overwhelming way I guess, or in a. Not like I say, treat the emotions of all head types. By the way, this is true for all head types. Treat the emotions like you would treat a cat. You're trying to. You're trying to. I don't I don't know cats though okay.

Help me. So a cat. Yeah exactly. So think about it. As the emotions of head types. It's very delicate. If you go at it, it runs, it shuts down. Shoot. Okay. So if you go in there, like, tell me what's going on. So what's going on? What's happening? Oh my gosh, that eagerness for all three of us five, six and seven is we're like, no.

That is such a great analogy. I'm sitting here going, good grief, the amount of fights I could have avoided if I had just not scared the cat. That's so great. Like, yeah, it's the cat. It's exactly. They don't scare the cat. And I say to people like, it's the it's actually really effective. And the ones that are doing it are calling.

My gosh, it is because they do want to come through. They do want to come. They do want their heart to be seen. All three do. But it's just like what happens is most people don't know that they are very scared. The cats, their heart center is afraid. And so if you come charging in, it runs away.

Yeah. So it's it's more of a process of be present, but don't be eager. And when you're present, ask the question. And you could be you could be playing not not necessarily direct. Direct is important. But but you can be plain like, hey, tell me how that how that feels, how that made you feel. And if you notice that be like a whatever. It's stupid.

That's what we say. Yeah it's stupid, that's I don't yeah. I mean and then we'll talk and there's a lot of words and generally all you have to do is just go, okay. Yeah. And if you can feel something in there, you can bring that up. It feels a little bit like this to me. Is that would that be close to that?

And it's like, and if you can see that they're starting to pull away emotionally, do not chase, do not pursue. Change the subject yourself. In fact, it's better if you end it than if they end it. Say, oh, thank you. That's really cool. That's really cool. So, let's talk about this other thing that you were interested in that you wanted to.

You'll watch what happens. The seven goes trust right instant. I trust you because you didn't go digging. You didn't go trying to pull more from there. That feels like to me, it feels like that's something you need not met. Something I need. When you start poking and pursuing, I'm like, you need that. It's like, now I don't trust you because there's something you want. So.

But if if you hold space and you're just like, okay with it, and then you pivot, you say, let's talk about something else and you talk about that. Now I'm like, I'll bring it back to that when I'm ready, and I'll probably be more ready because you weren't so damn eager. Don't. But also, it's a balancing act.

But also, don't be so quick. Some people man twos. When twos are not in a good place, they do this kind of thing and it drives me nuts. It's like, yeah, I want to. Oh, you know, well, here's something you could do about that. You could solve that. And they want to immediately solve it. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Breathe like chill. I don't need you to solve anything. Nor do I want you immediately changing the subject because it made you uncomfortable. Just take a pause and then when you see that there's nothing more than pivot, change the subject. Otherwise I feel like you're sitting there going like this more, more, more, more. And remember five, six and seven.

So we all have this thing of scarcity in the heart center, so don't go chasing us there. Fives have it by far the worst, but sixes and sevens. Two two. So yeah. Think of it as a cat. Okay. Be a cat. Whisper. Oh, man. Listen, this has been awesome. Jessie, thank you so much for. Your time. Thank you.

So much. Gift of what you've brought here. This has been just fantastic. So. Well, it's fun to talk with you guys and love the work you're doing. And for everybody listening, yeah, we all hope this has been helpful to you all. Merging Wisdom