Can We Disagree And Stay Connected? Navigating Different Beliefs - Ep. 4

Merging Wisdom All right, welcome back to Merging Wisdom. I'm super excited to be here again with Dan and Sarina. And if you've been following us so far, we really appreciate it. This is something of a kind of passion project, I think, for the three of us. And so we're not making money off of this or putting money into this, but it matters to us.

And so if you'd help us out, that'd be cool. So if you can like, subscribe, follow, give us reviews on this. It really helps us to be seeing more. That's a way for you to just say, hey, keep doing this. What you're doing. If you don't like it, obviously don't subscribe, don't follow. That's cool too. But

to me that's important. And even in our process of talking about this, the three of us have had some moments of like, I don't know if I agree or if I really want to platform that concept or, you know, that's come up. I think it's kind of important for us to talk about even our own process in doing this, if we're because I think the three of us are committed to this pursuit of wisdom, and it happens in our mind in a number of different ways.

But one significant way is your capacity to do this give and take your capacity to rub up against another person and even be a little bit like maybe triggered or, you know, have some points of disagreement. And to be able to work that out been to me, that's the journey is can you do that and get to a better place, get to even where you're happier than if you had gotten your own way?

Do you know what I mean? Like, there are times where I think if I had gotten my own way in this thing, it wouldn't have been as good as the fact that I had to have this back Right? Absolutely. mean, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this, and we've been talking the past week or two, and I think we want to be transparent.

Right. This is part of going to be part of our process here with merging wisdom is to have discussions openly on this platform, together with the different people that come on the show, with people that are watching and following and subscribing and liking and in the comments sections and all that. We want this to be a journey, and part of that is going to be being vulnerable and transparent with how we navigate through these, these different concepts and ideas and challenges, sometimes of having differing viewpoints.

And for us here at Merging Wisdom, having a variety of viewpoints and dissenting views and views of agreement, and a very wide variety of disciplines and people representing different backgrounds, that's a feature, not a bug It could be a bug if the platform, if the goal was more of an echo chamber type scenario where we have a very specific political view, or we have a very specific culture view, and our platform was clearly to propagate that belief system, that narrative, that viewpoint, and only that viewpoint.

If that was our goal, that we wouldn't be doing what we're doing, but we're intentionally leaning into not doing that, because that's not how I like to live and interact with people and with the world is just by living in an echo chamber or living inside my own confirmation bias. But I do like to seek out various views and some of those I agree with, some of those I disagree with, some of those I learned from, some of those I don't learn from.

You know, if I deem it not to be wise, but we're intentionally doing this as a practice. And so we're just going to hopefully along on that journey with this practice and that it produces some some good stuff and some stuff that's really valuable to, to take away, even if it's not. I agree with what was said or the person that was brought on.

There's something more valuable to us than just platforming people. We only agree with, Yeah. For me it really comes down to this experience of knowing we are all human and are valuable just because we get to live and be alive and figure out this life with and around each other in our differences are on purpose. like being similar can bring a sense of connection and and depth, which is beautiful and in relationships.

But also what is so beautiful is that capacity to grow often comes when there is the differences, when there is the friction. Right? Like in any healthy growing relationship, it's that pattern of connection, disconnection and then repair. this cyclical thing. It has to come around. And oftentimes we can just get in like, oh, there's a connection. Then there was a disconnection and now we're done, Yeah, yeah.

disconnection and never try and find the common ground or some. Yeah. Just some like common place to, to to see a reflection of what makes us human in one

Yeah. but it's uncomfortable Yeah. can lean into, not just in this channel, but also exemplify in our own lives. But like, that's why I personally am really like I really glean and find so helpful that practicality aspect of what we're trying to bring is like, how do we practice this for ourselves and learning from these others that are experts in in some place that I, I, you know, I'll play a naive and like I'm here to learn but but still trying to take what I can from it.

Not just playing dumb, but actually trying to learn and grow even if it feels uncomfortable. Yeah I liked what you said about finding common ground. Obviously that's a huge practice. That's a great thing to do in life. And obviously, like, this isn't all for Merging Wisdom. Like this is just a platform, but like the real practice of this and the real like essence of this is happening in our lives.

So we're doing this for our lives, not just for a channel. So we're just this is just a medium seeking to live this out primarily and have this conversation on this public platform is an extension of that. But finding common ground with people I think is hugely beneficial. I think it's valuable. I think it just really is a human experience that's beautiful.

I'd rather build bridges between people of various backgrounds than set up camps around our differences, and put up walls and boundaries. That's a huge value of mine, and I know ours as well. So. And but I'm going to nuance that too is something. Because while you were talking, another thing that came up just to to nuance the discussion a little further, but those are tremendous values of mine and ours, but also even finding common ground with someone or just introducing a topic, a speaker, an idea.

It's not just to force us to even find common ground. There are going to be instances where we do not find common ground. But I'm not scared of that either, right? It's not just so that we have to, like, mold everything together and be this amalgamation of kind of blurry, gray nothingness, like so that we don't have any beliefs or views or any strong convictions.

No that's not the point either. Like, try to find common ground, try to build bridges but not just for the sake of ignoring your beliefs or your convictions its a complicated thing and were, going to probably keep talking about this. Yeah. right. I think it's, I think a big part of it is our temptation to if we don't know ourselves, our temptations would be like, you know, in some cases, like, I don't like the conflict, I don't like the disagreements.

you know, go along. That's a temptation for some of us, if we're not aware of it, and others, it feels like if I go along, I'm losing myself in that. So I think that that's just a little self-awareness so that we can recognize that it's not that we're just right, it's that we're driven by something, a fear or something underneath that can that can get in the way of of growth and learning.

So I really appreciate you sharing that. I think that's important for us as we continue to practice this ourselves here, as the three of us, like they're going to be moments where it's like, I don't really want the conflict or I don't really want the disagreement, and I might back up. But if I'm tuning in, is this like, is that coming from a place of true harmony, or is it from a place of, you know, conflict avoidance?

Or if I'm standing my ground and being a little overprotective of, you know, what I value? What I think that that I can be a bit immovable in some ways or, you know, unnecessarily defended or antagonistic to an idea. So like you said something like that on the first episode, Joel, which which was really interesting and made a lot of sense.

It's like if you are feeling defensive, like if some topic comes up on here or in life. Why? Why are you feeling that feeling that you're feeling? I don't usually go to that place, but you're really good about tuning into that. That feeling, that emotion being present in your body. And yeah, I really valued with Sarina you said earlier I thought it was remarkably good is something that I'm really trying to practice myself, and that is to remember the humanity, to remember that that matters more, the connection, the relationship that you know, to see people as they are.

I'm adding an elaborate a little bit on what you were saying, but that's how I was hearing it in my own self as well. Like, yeah, a reminder, people matter more than positions

Oh, and believe me, there's a very good chance that my idea is bad. There's a there's but that's one of the things like am I too invested in this that I can't be wrong. questions I asked myself. Yeah. And what is what is being wrong look like. Right. And because, like, I keep coming back over the past couple of weeks as we try to plot out, we've had a bunch of great conversations.

We have some recorded already, we have some coming up, and we have a bunch of plans Real good stuff. Yeah. lot of really good stuff what does it even look like to be wrong? Because we have talked, we don't want to set ourselves up as the arbiters and gatekeepers of wisdom. Like that's that's not what this channel is about.

That's not what our lives are about, is to tell everybody what's right and wrong. So we're just uncomfortably learning to be comfortable being presented with a variety and concepts and beliefs and agreements and disagreements and cultural views and political views and spiritual views that some we love, some we don't, some we might have curiosity or confusion with, but we're not the ones to establish what is right and wrong.

Even though I do believe there is truth and right and wrong and good and bad and all that stuff. We're trying to find that though. But we're not the final authority on that, that's not for us. We're a roundtable discussion of a community of people in our lives and online and through these other voices that come on.

This is a roundtable discussion where there's no one person that holds all the truth and gets to dictate what's right and wrong. This is a communal human endeavor. We're attempting to do that makes it sound really lofty and really important. We're also going to hopefully have fun with it and hopefully be entertained by it. So I gotta put that in there as a good type 7 Yeah.

Sarina remember the back and forth you and I had early on. This is way before It was germinating in us. And there were times we were like, wait, what? What do you think, hold up I'm not sure we're on the same page at all on this concept of,

And, and yeah, it was like there were moments of, You know, I feel very like guarded about this. And so I think to, to address in part your question, was it mean to be wrong? I think just this is an existential fear that we have as humans to be marginalized and cast off from society. And I think this this is like in our biology, even like to be cast off from society means you're not going to you've been abandoned by the herd.

So good luck. You know. So this is like, I think, an existential fear around being completely marginalized from people that matter to us. And I also think that we all need kind of coherence, like things have to cohere internally. There's some studies around coherence that if you don't have it, you have a lot of incoherence inside you is very distressing for our system.

And so if it's like suddenly you're thrown in with a new idea that just totally upsets your your sense of mental order, emotional order, physical order, boy, it's hard. Right? So it's that's a that's like a deep internal need for coherence. And when that throws us off, it's like, wait, what? Wait, now you just upset completely my way of understanding how things are.

And that can feel scary as well. And it's probably the other reasons for that. But I think that's a that's certainly comes up. At least I know it comes up for me. Is that that wait, wait, what you know, or it is the practice, I think, that we're engaging in, as the three of us, to kind of go, it's worth us doing this and working through some of this stuff.

And I think I would add, besides what you had said, Dan, in terms of like, you know, finding common ground, but at times also finding places of it's our ability to hold tension. And I struggle with this like everybody else. yeah. says something that doesn't set right with me, I immediately want to resolve it. want to solve it.

The ability to hold my view. If it's if I don't care about it, then I don't have any tension. But if I care about it, then if something is said that is opposing what I fundamentally think or believe. Now again, I'm a head type, so it's coming from there. I want to fix it. I want to resolve it.

I want to solve that puzzle. Right. I'm going to fixate on it until I get there. But if I allow the tension and this is what I, I think one of our big values in merging wisdom, we're going to have somebody on who I know I think differently on, on, on some fundamental things. And I'm going to practice that in that, in that conversation back and forth, like let the tension set, let it set within me.

And we're not going to be able to the three of us are not going to be able to go, hey everybody, we've solved the tension for you. So you're okay because our value is to say, let the tension set until something emerges. That is a a something bigger than than what we could come in with. That's what I was saying to you.

The back and forth between all three of us has actually about where we're going. I feel better about how I'm seeing it. It's expanded me personally. So it's not just about the the product. I'm changing through the process. And to me, that is most Right. through this process because we're having the tension. And that's a good definition for the word dialog itself.

It's the process of the back and forth that creates something even bigger, better, and transforms us in the process. I so appreciate your awareness of your process and how different it is than mine. But Likewise. like I because when discomfort happens for me, when I there's a discussion and I like fundamentally disagree. And I'm like, this is so uncomfortable and awkward and this person isn't hearing me or whatever, you're in Yeah.

my heart immediately starts racing. And my first need that comes up is connection. And I'm like, oh, this is going to Yeah. do is I fall on, I'm like appease, find the common ground to the point where I lose my own beliefs even sometimes, or I won't. It's not that I lose them, I, I

not welcomed here. I assume they're not welcomed here, which is my I think what I do wrongly is I assume they're not welcome. I assume the other person can't handle the disagreement, and I just want peace, or I want to find the be vulnerable, to say something that might cause friction. So I do that by trying to just mute myself, appease, find the common ground and just play small, play really have rich conversations.

Sometimes I miss out on like representing who I am and and being present to the conversation. You know, I'll sit in the back and I'll just kind of like let it happen and like, okay, when is this over

manageable in my own heart and discomfort. But but it is like this.

It's okay. My opinion is this person might be able to handle it. And even if they are, if they sever connection in the midst or they can't handle the disagreement, that doesn't make my opinion wrong. It just means it

And maybe there's a way to kind of figure it out. If there's somebody I do life with, then of course I'm like, we got to figure this out. Like, because relationship matters more to me than than agreement. But I also like I don't want to lose myself in for the sake of, of Right. like this fabricated thing, and then relationship can become shallow instead of really deep and challenging and growing, which is what we all want.

And and so yeah, me learning to try like the challenge is leaning in with my opinion, leaning in with like what my thoughts are secure in that to know like the person can handle it. Like why do I think people are so fragile? Why am I so afraid of them? Forget. Which I kind of know it's connected to, like I'm in therapy for that.

So I have awareness of my protectors to Yeah. but that's not that doesn't need to always show up in conversation. You know, like I can I can show up to, you know, anyways. pick on other people for a second here because I think you were like, well can other people can they. They can handle it. Well, a lot of people actually can't.

time with disagreement. And that's why we're really intentionally leaning into this practice. And in doing this in life and being aware of of how we react to different circumstances like this. If you just go online for seven seconds and look at how people handle opposing thoughts and opposing viewpoints and opposing cultural things and

allowed subsection of people. Maybe not all of humanity is like that, but with the rise of social media, it does seem like a lot of people out there do have a hard time with disagreements. So we have to learn, as all of us here that are listening, watching and following our conversations here, we have to learn how to interact with a life and an online culture and a political and religious culture that really does.

A lot of people, unfortunately, do have a very hard time. If you disagree with them or you're not part of their denomination or or movement, that's, that's just that does happen a lot. But relationship for me and for us and for hopefully a lot of people out there, is the stronger guiding force. And that's worth pushing through some of those difficult feelings that we're describing.

I feel I have different feelings than even U2, so this is no surprise that probably everybody listening is going to have a slightly different way they handle these situations. I don't know, I haven't really thought too much how I because I'm not as in tune to my body and my emotions, because I typically view emotions as mostly a negative thing to be avoided at all costs. But I laugh, I laugh so people know.

Ha ha ha. I'm joking. That's. But it's kind of true. I do deal with a lot of those situations. Probably with humor. Can I make this person laugh? Can I find can we laugh together? That's going to be a huge connection point for me. That's going to be building tremendous relational bridges. Can we what can we focus on that that we do like and agree with food.

Is it sports? Is it a TV show? I have a tremendous value in trying to find connections with people. I fortunately or unfortunately, I guess depending on how you view my friends. But most of my friends I've been friends with for like a very long time, like 20, 30 years. I love maintaining long term relationships. I try to maintain good relationships with all these people I've known throughout my life my family, different bosses, different movements, and part of I try to maintain long term relationships.

I like that and my friends. At one point we had a very, very similar cultural, religious, political outlook. Like we were all very simple, like very cut from the same cloth. Over the past 20 to 30 years, no surprise, culture shifted. People's views have shifted. Deconstruction, spin, the political worlds gone haywire. I have a very, very different views so many of my friends.

Like. We're all so different now. We are very, very good friends because we value the friendship. We value the connection points more than where we could disagree. Now, if our focus was just trying to convince each other that we're right or I'm not going to platform you or your views, I'm not going to, you know, then it wouldn't work.

But there's something more than just us having to agree, having to go to the same Bible study, having to vote the exact same way that there's something more than all that that's important. but it takes acknowledging that you're going to you're willing to fight for relationships. You're willing to fight for connection with people you know. So and this is where I'd like to see this move even further is that we go from.

Yeah. We can hang out with different because there's a lot of people who I watch this at the the gym that I go to that disagree on politics, disagree on a lot of

mutual point of connection. where is that place of where there's this growth happening and you're moving beyond just, hey, we get along, have a great time together, but there's this transformation that's taking place. And this is my hope for merging wisdom is that we can do that so that we go past the fear of disagreement and and past the fear of losing our views or our positions or whatever else.

And every one of us is going to have a different thing, as Sarina mentioned, very different than mine. Like, can we move through that with it? We bring it with us because you can't just not have it. You bring it with it, but you enter in. You say, how can I grow? How can I even be? Wow, I didn't see that about my own view and my own position, or my own feelings about things.

I'm changing as a result of this, and that's what I hope for, is that we can do this thing of building bridges, but then even move further and actually begin to mutually Right?

Yeah, because it's a challenge. There's a challenge aspect to it. Where can we we're going to be trying to pull threads of wisdom, right? As good hosts and good stewards of this platform. Like, I think that's something we've talked about, like where what threads of wisdom can we pull out of this person? And I remember Joel, I was like, if we had this political person on and then like the opposite political person and then the opposite, like I'm totally cool with that.

Again, maybe that's my like I'm really genuinely like, what? What bridge can we build with this person? And then the person that is the opposite of that. Is there any thread of wisdom? And if you say no, I can only extract wisdom from the person that I vote for, the person I like on TV, the my pastor at my church, my religious view.

That's a limiting worldview and it's super helpful. Obviously, you're going to find a lot more life and wisdom and growth out of the people that all think like you and believe like you, and that's and that's great. There's nothing wrong with having your beliefs and your convictions, but if you limit it at a point where you go, only my denomination, that's too far for me.

And and maybe here's another thing to just to keep harping on this, we'll have people on like you're talking about. We'll try to pull threads of wisdom. Maybe. Maybe there's nothing there to

But at least you are nice. got into some huge, huge fight that goes viral. That could be awesome to that could get us some clicks.

but we're going to try to pull threads it again. It's not up to us to have the final say. Us as a community, as people, you know, during together are going to figure out if that was useful or wise to them. Maybe it wasn't to us. Maybe it is Yeah. We're not always going to tell the people

Yeah. Yeah. topic. Right. So we hope you understand that, like, we're not we're not just going to do that, but we are going to have some podcast where we actually do that very thing. It could be after the fact that would be debrief. It could be in the moment depending on the person and how how it's going.

But yeah our goal is not to have gotcha moments and have Right. I mean shameless plug from the website and what we've kind of written down, it's merging wisdom as a podcast exploring faith, psychology, culture, history, politics and what it means to live wisely in a complex world. And then a second thought to that, and a really important one, I think that really encapsulates a lot of what we're doing and to believe in it says no single field, tradition or point of view has a monopoly on wisdom.

Merging wisdom follows the questions that matter across the boundaries that usually keep our conversations apart. Those kind of those two lines that kind of encapsulate the general thing we're going for, we're trying to follow in all these fields, these disciplines, these people that have expertise in certain backgrounds. We're trying to follow and seek out the wisdom wherever that might be found.

Maybe, like we're saying, sometimes it's not abundantly found. But if there's something there, that's more what we're trying to extract, as opposed to being truth seekers or heresy hunters, we got to sniff out the false and and expose the truth and expose the false and show people what's right and be the final voice. That's not really what we're doing.

You know, there's some popular YouTubers right now, on on stuff that's happening in the Christian world. And, and it's like exposing. So these are the ones that are exposed and I've and and I love a lot of what's happening there. this view is wrong, this doctrine is wrong. This is and I think you didn't really hear what the other person on the other side is saying. And to me, that's a loss.

Like when you don't really listen well to what is being conveyed by the other side, we need to really strongman

Yeah. that stuff to me just turns me right off when I'm like, you did not listen at all to what they were trying to convey. Or you don't understand their position, their worldview, their, their tradition. You Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. interested in going viral. I'd love it. Yes, that's great, but I'm not. That's not my goal. And that's not our goal. Our goal is really let's pursue wisdom as much as we can, because that tends to bring a whole lot more good fruit in our lives. I mean, I it has for me, I want to continue on that path.

So anyways, I just want to like that to me is a distinct difference is what we're trying to do versus like what you were saying. They're wrong. That person's wrong. You know, the truth is found that got me thinking about something I wanted to bring up. We're in the very early stages of launching this, but I've already seen this happening on a microcosmic level, and I can anticipate this happening and seeing this more as our audience grows and our catalog grows, the comments even, and the great discussions and the vibrant discussions that are already happening after only just a couple episodes, don't jump to conclusions as to what you think our beliefs are.

Try to listen to the people we have on a little bit. Try to listen to where we're coming from because already some of the comments are like, so what you're saying is this and

Right? of what the people we've had on are saying and make sure you're listening. This is talking to all of us here. Make sure we're listening to what people are saying in front of us, instead of just being very, very quick to jump in with your assumptions. Let me let me give a little wisdom tip from Scott Adams, who I've mentioned before, and I'll probably mention many times because I loved following him.

He passed away this year, unfortunately. Here's you might like this one. Joel. This has been very helpful. He came up with this technique, the so technique. If you're ever in a discussion or online or with somebody wherever and they go and you say something, they go, so what you're saying is pretty much you After that part. going to straw man.

They are going to completely give a fanciful, cartoonish version of what you're saying. You could present your testimony or belief of God, and they're going to go, so what you're saying is you believe in the Spaghetti Monster that lives in the sky or whatever it is. You know, here's my political thing. So what you're saying is you hate kids.

You know, it's like whatever people say after. So that should be a trigger for you. So thanks Scott Adams for that. be careful not to do that to others. Be careful not to do that in the conversations we're having where you're not trying to understand these conversations that are happening. I think that's just something to be Yeah. So.

So. Yes. No.

Yeah, You know what's coming next. Yeah, yeah. The so one is a little more sneaky because they're, they're trying to like be like, so what you're saying is it's like, no, of course that's not what I'm saying. And if you believe that's what I'm saying, then you believe I'm an insane person. So what do you what's going on here?

Yeah. It reminds me of like being able to cultivate the discipline of a listening and like how listening is really a discipline. Like it is not, I think, our

Good point. Yeah. next. And so we're not super present to like what's actually being said. And listening is so much more than just like audio, like it's much more than just language. It's it's the intuiting of of the person's essence. It's the it's giving them the benefit of the doubt in a way that is like trying to

Oh, yeah. Yep.

thing. And it's like, that's again, just more clickbait. And I mean, my hope is to really in presenting different voices and different expertise and, and wisdom thoughts is to enable ourselves to tune into what resonates like as we listen, as we really take it in, as we are genuinely present to what is being shared. And again, not trying to take it all as like as Scripture and be like, this is the word of of truth.

And we take everything that every guest says as like law. It's like, that's just silliness, you know, or or what we often do, or in our culture of just like being loyal to a certain camp of things, belief

Oh, definitely. That's true. Yeah.

Yep. That's right. to a person or a sister or like a belief like Thor is like, it's so risky, doesn't require any thoughtfulness. It doesn't require any wisdom on our own part of taking responsibility for. Wait a second, I can still, I'm not afraid of listening to all the different parties and stuff, but like, I'm not going to sign up to be like a blind follower.

Like, what do I actually believe? What do what is actually resonating with what is true, with what is good and what is beautiful in like, making it feel whole and and worthwhile to cultivate in myself, to hold on to as like this thought challenged my my normal thinking. But I'm going to chew on this. I'm going to hold on to it, you know, take time with it.

Like, why are we in such a rush? Because there's so much information out there. There's such a rush to like, consume, consume, consume, get it all, figure out what you believe, and then, like, say it all very clearly and concisely. And if you don't communicate perfectly like you're on a Oh, yeah. to be in process and to like, get it wrong.

Like, not even I don't even want to say get it wrong. Just just to like, try to fumble learning, to walk, to fumble, learning a new skill of trying to play like the piano. You're going to sound like crap in the beginning, but keep going because you're going to eventually sound great if you keep going. And so that's what.

Yeah, like I hope people are able to do is like we can offer is like that that an outlet

Yeah. like what you said about not being scared. Like what are we scared of? What are we scared of? If your cousin comes over that thinks differently than you, what are you scared of by being around your coworker that thinks differently than you? What are you scared of? Listening to somebody that might be on a podcast, like merging Wisdom that thinks differently of you?

We shouldn't be scared. I get why, like I'm like, why? What's the reason? No, I get it there. They think different. They have a different belief system. They say things you don't like. If it's really not good, beautiful and true, then it should affirm your own current belief system. Don't be scared. It should help affirm what you already believe.

Maybe, though, there's some stuff that you wouldn't naturally be around a person, a personality that you have something to glean from. And we shouldn't be so quick to be so judgmental. I already know, right? Stay curious. Stay open. And again, if if it's if it's completely not valid or not useful, you don't have to take it with you.

Nobody's making you believe anything. But what I would be more scared of than being around people in your life or online that you disagree with, is you putting up boundaries and walls and us just isolating ourselves into. I have it all figured out, me and my very

Yeah. yeah. So much goodness in there. I am super excited, though. I have to say, I don't like there's projects that I, that I undertake that I'm like, really happy about. And then there are ones that are just like this one feels good on every front and this is one of them. I love that we're doing this.

I love even that the name was an accident. had started with emerging wisdom, right? That Which you can probably catch on the first couple episodes I had to edit out the

And then, you know, I'm super excited about it and I'm on vacation and I share it with some, some folks that, that I see every year we do, we go to the same sort of camp and hang out and and so then he's like, oh, that's really cool. I'm excited. I want to listen to this. And so then the next day he comes to me and he says, so, yes.

Yeah, talking to my girlfriend about it. And I told her, you guys have this podcast called Merging Wisdom. And I was like, oh, cool. Except it's it's Emerging Wisdom. But that's something in me was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I like this name That was better. That was much better.

so excited because because it clicked when it's like we like seed that that was going to grow from the concept of it and it wasn't fully clicking yet. We tried a couple early episodes merging wisdom from from my point of view and our point of view. That's when it clicked.

Yeah, yeah. life merging together. And we're going to try to extract and find and navigate through all those voices and find wisdom. And just with the three of us, two, we're going to merge our collective voices together. And the people that are going to join our conversation online, like, wow, we're all merging together to find wisdom and pursue

It's like because it's like these are the reforming. This even in the name, it's formed not in a silo. It's not formed in, you know, me imposing that Right. Yep. pay attention to it, this is sort of like things that evolve, that form, that shape are not the sort of like hyper focused, Yes. the dialog with other people.

yeah. That came out of our relationship, that came out of conversation. And that's hopefully what's going to be happening more and more is oh wow. That that idea, that concept, that spark, that new friendship connection viewpoint. It's going to come out sometimes accidentally. Like, I don't even know why we're having this person on, but boy, that was really cool.

Or I don't know why I bought this book, but it's actually really cool. And it made me think about all these great things. Or I learned something about myself or about other people. So and we're going to be having like keep saying like people of different backgrounds, they might not be of the same faith background or maybe sometimes without faith, but they have something to offer because they have lived experience in this world.

Maybe they're from the medical world, maybe they're an author that has something really valuable to say. We're the ones that that have our perspectives, the three of us, and we have our viewpoints and all that, and we're going to be pulling on these people as we can and incorporating them into what we're doing. But these people are coming in just to join us for a moment, see what we can experience with them.

And then they go, and that is a that is a risky, scary, stupid thing to do if you're trying to control

narrative like we stumbled into the name, we're going to stumble through these conversations sometimes and maybe look stupid me mostly in the process, but we're going to have a hopefully a good I'm gonna have a blast. Should be awesome. In the meantime, let me say one last thing too from my point of view. And then you guys, if you have anything else, even me, if you've listened to a couple episodes, I've brought up my Mormon History project.

We had the great John Turner on talking Yeah. That was good. interactions with the Mormon History Project and the Mormon stuff from time to time. Already. Some of what's happened in some of the interactions, though, is people project that because I'm not a believing member of the LDS church, I am against and I'm trying to fight, I'm trying to debate or I'm trying to prove them wrong.

That's not my intent with any of that. I welcome people of the of the LDS church. Come join. Follow with my conversations. I'm very interested in the history of of the Mormon Church of Joseph Smith. And it's not so that I can annihilate you in a debate or prove why you're wrong. And I'm right. I'm here to to learn, to grow.

And if you hear stuff on our podcast that you agree with or disagree with, write us. Put it in the comments. Let's talk. But I love Mormons. I do not believe in Mormonism. I'm not a I'm not a mormon, but I love the Mormon community. I love people of the various Christian denominations, Protestant and Catholic and and all this.

And I'm learning. I'm growing. I happen to be interested in this kind of, you know, subset topic of of the, you know, religious expression called, you know, the LDS Church and Mormonism. But it's not an against move. It's just a fascination. And please, everybody who wants to join us for the conversation and don't think that we're trying to attack people here.

Yes. I just love the that point about and I think it's proven to be so accurate in my life that oftentimes the most profound moments are those subtle things that we can easily miss. It's those those happenstance things, those quick moments where a thought is challenged or Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Almost Right.

There is. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

I love it. Yeah yeah. can listen for it. And then when I do, it's like, wow, this is way more than I could have Yes. gift wisdom is. It really is a gift and and I and and that's part of what I think, you know, all three of us are excited about is like, what a gift to get to lean into this and these conversations and seek out those, those seeds and see what fruit comes and not just in our own lives, but but for the our listening community, hopefully, and those that might tune in for a season and tune out for

Sure. Fair.

work. Like it really does. It really does. You say things sometimes I think. You think like it's it's whatever because you're always playing like you said. You play, you can play small. You have such profundity to some of the things you say that I'm like that word nails it. Like you said, the softness. That is exactly right.

I can feel it when I'm in a good soft place of receptivity. Then stuff like that just naturally happens and I'm like, oh, merging. Oh,

aiming at something or I've just got my focus and my attempt. I'm, I'm that would I would have dismissed that. I would never have even thought twice about it. And we would have gone, gone on. And then when you talked about the emotion and I felt your emotion come through in a beautiful way of like, this is what happens when there's something more transcendent in the dialog, in the exchange.

I'm a huge believer that that's the experience of of the divine, that's the experience of God. In the midst of all of that, I think when I'm solo, I don't feel it as much. I can get inspiration, I get ideas, but it's it's in the exchange with humanity. That's something happens when I'm in that soft place, that receptive place, as well as putting myself out there.

I'm not hiding back by going, everybody just welcome everybody and everybody's ideas. When I'm engaged, then something transcendent takes place. And I think the way you articulated that just really spot on. So that captures, I think, so much all of this that we've talked about really captures our hearts behind and our minds behind. What are we trying to do here?

Thanks for catching that little twinkle because I would have just bypassed me like, oh, I missed the moment, you know. So.

Just gotta go. Just people can interpret that if they clip this out that you're trying to get rid of your wife. Just saying. Just the emotions.

But there's also a point of like, there is such wisdom and humor. Like we can't take ourselves too seriously, right? Like, This is great. This is exactly how we should be. I think we're going to be real. You know, I've been confined by by sort of a performance that I was trained in. That's a religious kind of

serious, be, you know, whatever. And, you know, that stuff doesn't really work. And it doesn't. Yeah, it's not real. So I love our being authentic about where we are, what our thoughts are about things. But as well as, you know, as we've said, like our value in in our ideal and what we want to do is merging wisdom, which is let's continue to bring the streams together.

Let's be disrupted in the process, the see if we can hold the tension. Let's see if we can learn through dialog. Something will transcendent will bring us further and deeper and and grow us. So all of this stuff was so good. I think this would be a great place for us to go. Let's let's pause here and more to come.

Merging Wisdom